tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post243796676452595669..comments2023-10-31T03:18:26.963-07:00Comments on Great Guys Weblog: What's that Saying about Having and Eating Cake?Brethttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15063508651955739056noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-53935534498556608002016-08-31T09:30:11.039-07:002016-08-31T09:30:11.039-07:00I have many times objected to argument by analogy,...I have many times objected to argument by analogy, but I'm going to give it a whirl, anyway.<br /><br />My airplane has three electric generators, two engine driven, and the aux power unit (normally shutdown in flight).<br /><br />If one of them fails on the ground, we can defer fixing it, and proceed with the other two. However, if one of the remaining generators fails in flight, then we must declare an emergency and divert to the newest suitable field.<br /><br />Plan A: all three generators<br /><br />Plan B: Two generators provides sufficient redundancy.<br /><br />Plan C: One generator is an emergency, because even though it is capable of supplying all aircraft loads, if it fails we are forced to rely upon ...<br /><br />Plan D: Emergency battery power and a ram air turbine.<br /><br />This analogy applies directly to allowing nursing mothers to fly: <br /><br />Plan A: Everything goes exactly right.<br /><br />Plan B: incredibly distracting pain.Hey Skipperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10798930502187234974noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-85289355524375152062016-08-31T05:56:23.964-07:002016-08-31T05:56:23.964-07:00[Clovis:] I don't buy you guys can't sum ...<i>[Clovis:] I don't buy you guys can't sum up 20 minutes free of the cockpit during an afternoon of multiple short legs. </i><br /><br />Whether you buy it or not, it is the truth. Especially during multiple leg days. By definition, they involve shorter flights, which means correspondingly less en route time. And because airplanes are expensive, and don't earn money when they are sitting on the ground, turns aren't known for being lackadaisical.<br /><br /><i>Not to mention all the other options she has to help the pumping, like Bret's link above. </i><br /><br />The options are beside the point. I'm happy to grant a hypothetical that there are practical means to make pumping private, whether in or out of the cockpit.<br /><br />That does not change the fact that nursing pilots are performing duty knowing that if Plan A doesn't work, then the alternative is incredibly distracting pain. (And that is assuming there is even a workable Plan A in the first place.)<br /><br />In aviation, such an alternative to Plan A is never acceptable. It astonishes me that Ms. Beck somehow thinks this doesn't matter.Hey Skipperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10798930502187234974noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-82047160596120026292016-08-31T05:18:52.702-07:002016-08-31T05:18:52.702-07:00Skipper,
Really?
Notice they don't need who...Skipper,<br /><br />Really? <br /><br />Notice they don't need whole 20 minutes, they can separate it in blocks. I don't buy you guys can't sum up 20 minutes free of the cockpit during an afternoon of multiple short legs.<br /><br />Not to mention all the other options she has to help the pumping, like Bret's link above.<br /><br />Clovishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08921327103613284595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-31416540064077672802016-08-31T03:32:06.369-07:002016-08-31T03:32:06.369-07:00[Clovis:] Since any typical mother has pre-pumping...<i>[Clovis:] Since any typical mother has pre-pumping autonomy of 3 to 4 hours, <a href="https://youtu.be/ad3muFUM4r0" rel="nofollow">they will surely be able to find 20 minutes to pump in between flights</a>. </i><br /><br />Hey Skipperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10798930502187234974noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-47407274095004738902016-08-30T18:09:09.106-07:002016-08-30T18:09:09.106-07:00Skipper,
I don't know if you noticed, but you...Skipper,<br /><br />I don't know if you noticed, but you just hinted to a very simple solution to the whole problem. <br /><br />You only need to assign Pilot-Moms to the shorter regional flights. Since any typical mother has pre-pumping autonomy of 3 to 4 hours, they will surely be able to find 20 minutes to pump in between flights. No one hurted and no need to cry over spilled milk.<br /><br />You can refer my name to the logistic department of your company, if they ever need an extra hand. I accept payment in Dollars, Euro, Real or Beers.Clovishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08921327103613284595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-72630497982026586952016-08-30T16:18:44.153-07:002016-08-30T16:18:44.153-07:00[Bret:] Pumping technology has improved since your...<i>[Bret:] Pumping technology has improved since your wife's time (if she even used it), and even then it wasn't nearly as hard as you're making it out to be:</i><br /><br />My comments have nothing to do with technology, and have everything to do with fitness for flight. The rule, evenly applied, means that any physical condition known ahead of time that would distract from performing flight duties renders the pilot medically unqualified.<br /><br /><i>And they can't take Advil because why? A couple hours one way or the other isn't that big a deal. </i><br /><br />Quoting from the article:<br /><br /><i>A lactating mother <b>often needs to pump breast milk every three to four hours.</b> When she cannot do so, painful pressure can build up in her chest, accompanied by a risk of infection.<br /><br /><b>“It’s incredibly distracting and painful,”</b> said Ms. Beck, “like when you need to go to the bathroom and can’t.” </i><br /><br />I don't think Advil is going to help.<br /><br />And there are more problems. Pilots don't accrue enough experience to get hired in the majors until they are in their 30s (younger for women, because they don't need as much experience to get hired). Until then, they will be in regionals, typically flying 5-7 legs a day. There is no such thing as 20 minute breaks.<br /><br />Then, when they get into a major (Delta, United, American, FedEx, SWA, UPS), they will be junior. In the passenger airlines, that means flying shorter haul routes, typically 3-5 legs a day. There is almost no such thing as 20 minute breaks. And, since they are junior, they have almost no control over their schedules, so they won't get the easier trips.<br /><br />At FedEx we have new hires going to all the airframes. The 777 and MD11 <i>do</i> have route segments where they could pump. But many trips on those airplanes are two weeks long. Being junior, they have no control over their schedule and could get two-week trips back to back. How's that supposed to work with nursing?<br /><br />Those complications are significant -- seniority is sacrosanct.<br /><br />But that really avoids the central point. No male pilot would get away with flying knowing he had a condition that would get incredibly distracting and painful unless attended to no matter what else was going on.<br /><br />Why? Because it would be stupid.<br /><br />Well, it's stupid when a woman does it, too. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Hey Skipperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10798930502187234974noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-89601313954066438362016-08-30T09:02:43.111-07:002016-08-30T09:02:43.111-07:00Hey Skipper asks: "Wouldn't be allowed fo...Hey Skipper asks: "<i>Wouldn't be allowed for men, so why for women?</i>"<br /><br />That's the important question and for me, I'd much rather have a hot female pilot than the usual old duffer male pilots and it would be well worth the slight extra risk of dying. :-)<br /><br />Hey Skipper wrote: "<i>My reading doesn't distract the other pilot. I can read or not, as the situation requires. I don't need to set up a privacy rig to read.></i>"<br /><br />Pumping technology has improved since your wife's time (if she even used it), and even then it wasn't nearly as hard as you're making it out to be:<br /><br />http://www.healthchecksystems.com/Dao_Health.cfm<br /><br />Would that really distract you? It won't distract the woman - she just sits there and does whatever. One quick motion disconnects if an emergency requires that. No more than putting down your book.<br /><br />Hey Skipper wrote: "<i>If I don't read, I'm not going to experience distracting swelling and pain in my chest.</i>"<br /><br />And they can't take Advil because why? A couple hours one way or the other isn't that big a deal. What if you get a headache while flying? Is that a life threatening distraction?<br /><br />--<br /><br />The bottom line is that I get that an airline doesn't wish to go through the effort and expense to figure out how to accommodate a fraction of 4% of their workforce and it would take some effort to think it through. And I don't blame them or the shareholders. However, I suspect they <i>could</i> figure it out if they (and you) put your minds to it instead coming up with what look to be lame-ish excuses.Brethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15063508651955739056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-27698458541358577702016-08-30T08:16:38.405-07:002016-08-30T08:16:38.405-07:00[Clovis:] Just out of curiosity ...
Then what? Yo...<i>[Clovis:] Just out of curiosity ...<br /><br />Then what? You call the airline and say "Boys, I am stuck at the privy, I don't know how good I will be to flight"? </i><br /><br />Yes -- it is up to individual pilots to decide whether they are fit for duty. There is absolutely no retribution.<br /><br /><i>How that works out, since you may not know if it will take half an hour to get better, or a day? </i><br /><br />Well, that's a judgment call, isn't it? I have only had food poisoning once, but I remember it being a significantly worse experience than mere momentary inconvenience.<br /><br /><i>And how about your pay? You don't get paid the leg back if you don't fly it? </i><br /><br />Whenever a pilot calls med down, the pilot's sick bank* is debited for the block time** of the trip not flown. If the call is before the trip, then that is the entire trip; otherwise, it is the remaining block time. <br /><br />*We get 72 hrs sick pay each year. Unused time goes into a disability bank.<br />** Block time is from the time the aircraft pushes back until opening a cabin door at the end of the flight.<br /><br /><i>And how does the airline keeps up with such uncertainty? The can't possibly have one pilot in each destination waiting to replace you, so how does that work? </i><br /><br />No, they don't. The first line of defense is the fact that pilots, as a group, are pretty healthy, so that calling med down in the field is very rare. When it happens, and the aircraft isn't positioned where we have pilots on hotel standby, then the company will move the nearest available pilot as quickly as possible, including chartering a business jet if required. <br /><br />And sometimes the airplane just doesn't move. Cost of doing business.<br /><br /><i>Airline logistics must be fascinating (I mean it). </i><br /><br />IMHO, airline operations is more complex than just about anything I can think of -- it is fascinating.<br /><br /><i>She wants privacy? She could well use some towels to hide her torso. Maybe some curtain too. Heck, there are even automatic pumping machines where her hands will be free most of the time. </i><br /><br />That's not what these women want, but never mind. She will be distracted from her primary duties. But she isn't the only one on the flight deck. What about the other pilot, does their distraction count?<br /><br />Her ability to respond to, and confirm, clearances will be impeded. And that imposes on the other pilot, because if there is a violation, the other pilot's ticket is on the line, too.<br /><br /><i>If you are allowed to read a book while flying, I can't see pumping milk as any more distractive than that. </i><br /><br />Lemme see. My reading doesn't distract the other pilot. I can read or not, as the situation requires. I don't need to set up a privacy rig to read. If I don't read, I'm not going to experience distracting swelling and pain in my chest.<br /><br />And it is the last, as if the first several weren't enough, that should be the attention getter: There is no way to guarantee ahead of time that there will be opportunity, but it is guaranteed that if the opportunity does not present itself, the nursing mom will be distracted.<br /><br />Wouldn't be allowed for men, so why for women?<br />Hey Skipperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10798930502187234974noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-64179923192064555752016-08-30T07:13:36.515-07:002016-08-30T07:13:36.515-07:00Skipper,
Back to Pilot-Mom, I think the whole mat...Skipper,<br /><br />Back to Pilot-Mom, I think the whole matter is being made more complex than it is.<br /><br />She wants privacy? She could well use some towels to hide her torso. Maybe some curtain too. Heck, there are even automatic pumping machines where her hands will be free most of the time.<br /><br />If you are allowed to read a book while flying, I can't see pumping milk as any more distractive than that. I see moms pumping milk *and* reading their tablets/smartphones at the same time, and they still keep more awareness towards the baby than I can if I am thinking about any other stuff.<br /><br />Clovishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08921327103613284595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-51680497619840593522016-08-30T07:05:30.308-07:002016-08-30T07:05:30.308-07:00Skipper,
Just out of curiosity: you make a leg of...Skipper,<br /><br />Just out of curiosity: you make a leg of your flight and, in the Hotel, finds out your last meal is giving you real trouble. <br /><br />Then what? You call the airline and say "Boys, I am stuck at the privy, I don't know how good I will be to flight"?<br /><br />How that works out, since you may not know if it will take half an hour to get better, or a day?<br /><br />And how about your pay? You don't get paid the leg back if you don't fly it? <br /><br />And how does the airline keeps up with such uncertainty? The can't possibly have one pilot in each destination waiting to replace you, so how does that work?<br /><br />Airline logistics must be fascinating (I mean it).<br /><br />Clovishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08921327103613284595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-39277823994054000492016-08-29T00:21:04.745-07:002016-08-29T00:21:04.745-07:00Clovis:
If I knew I had a dysentery problem befor...Clovis:<br /><br />If I knew I had a dysentery problem <i>before</i> takeoff -- which completes your analogy -- and decided to fly anyway, then that would be a gross failure of professionalism and a violation of the FAR.<br /><br /><br /><i>I am not particularly convinced, Skipper, that giving those women 20 minutes out of the deck is such a risky endeavor. </i><br /><br />Which 20 minutes? Of course, trans oceanic flights have hours where not much happens. But almost all flights have roughly a half hour in the departure and arrival phases. And then there is, typically, ten to fifteen minutes studying, planning, programming and briefing the arrival. Flights here in Europe are relatively short -- plenty of the segments I fly are non-stop activity from push-back to shut down. <br /><br />In the States, flights can be longer. But let's say it's one of those days which are typical in the summer. Re-routes and dodging thunderstorms. Which, in their patriarchal tyranny, really don't give a damn how much pressure Pilot Mom is experiencing. And, so I've been led to believe, and not just by this article, that pressure can be painful and distracting.<br /><br />And that gets us right back to fitness for flight. One of the things that makes being an airline pilot unique is that once that airplane leaves the runway, the only acceptable conclusion is coming to a stop at another runway with the airplane in a reusable condition, and that once in the air there is no stopping and pulling over, or even slowing down. The environment, the airplane, and other airplanes, impose demands that often aren't predictable and can't be put off.<br /><br />Imposing the conditions of blue sky, good weather and at cruising altitude must, in order for them to be meaningful, be routinely predicted and expected. They can't. In the US northeast corridor, storms hundreds of miles away can cause en route complications, no matter how blue the sky might appear.<br /><br /><i>If you answer me with "How safe would you feel knowing the pilot is pumping milk in an emergency?", I will tell I wouldn't feel safe at all, milk or no milk, if the other pilot remaining in the cockpit is too incompetent to take care of any trouble alone. </i><br /><br />There is common, understandable, misconception. There are many reasons why airline travel has become so much safer over the last twenty years. One of them is the understanding that piloting an airliner requires extremely strictly dividing tasks between those required to fly the airplane, and everything else: navigation, communication, checklists, etc.<br /><br />That is why all airlines now use the Pilot Flying/Pilot Monitoring distinction. It allows mental focus on distinctly different tasks, and gives the PM distance from aircraft performance. I know that sounds counterintuitive, but channelized attention can get anybody. The PM's distance from the flying task makes it much more likely that channelized attention will be discovered and corrected.<br /><br />So what you think is a matter of competence is nothing like that: it is the clear division of cockpit duties in order to provide resilience. <br /><br />There are plenty of crashed airplanes and dead people that prove the point. <br /><br />About which Becky is either wholly and willfully ignorant (Given <i>Ms. Beck said that after nearly 20 years in the aviation industry, she assumed she could keep her job and nurse her baby. “I guess it never came to light in my mind that I couldn’t do both..." </i> ignorance is an understandable assumption.) or doesn't care, or because she is a woman and women must have it all, that she is immune from reality.<br /><br />I'm not sure there is any other option.<br /><br />(It isn't possible for me to fully express my dismay at what she did. That is pre-meditated stupidity. And I can't fathom, now that this has become public, why the FAA hasn't started enforcement action. Oh. Wait. Woman. Never mind.)Hey Skipperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10798930502187234974noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-84904601907923158672016-08-28T18:51:13.997-07:002016-08-28T18:51:13.997-07:00Skipper,
----
The NYT doesn't seem particular...Skipper,<br /><br />----<br />The NYT doesn't seem particularly inclined to wonder why it is OK for women to have a condition requiring absence from the flight deck for 20 mins at a whack, whereas a man similarly indisposed would lose his medical stat.<br />----<br /><br />I need to ask: have you never had a dysentery problem that took you more than 20 minutes?<br /><br />Now I understand why that's seen as a tough job...Clovishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08921327103613284595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-30756063509994868112016-08-28T18:41:48.364-07:002016-08-28T18:41:48.364-07:00I am not particularly convinced, Skipper, that giv...I am not particularly convinced, Skipper, that giving those women 20 minutes out of the deck is such a risky endeavor.<br /><br />Given they are 4% of the workforce, and that you guys use autopilot most of the time nowadays, what are the odds this mom-pilot will be desperately needed at any 20 minutes under blue sky, good weather and cruising altitude? <br /><br />If you answer me with "How safe would you feel knowing the pilot is pumping milk in an emergency?", I will tell I wouldn't feel safe at all, milk or no milk, if the other pilot remaining in the cockpit is too incompetent to take care of any trouble alone.<br />Clovishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08921327103613284595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-87517323562177475902016-08-28T00:08:56.869-07:002016-08-28T00:08:56.869-07:00Several reasons: privacy, distraction, and ability...Several reasons: privacy, distraction, and ability to respond quickly to an emergent situation.<br /><br />As a matter of can or can't, it obviously isn't impossible. But the FAA would never allow any other imposition on primary flight duties, so why this one? Besides, it isn't as if the women in this article are asking for that.Hey Skipperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10798930502187234974noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-40449507397757908732016-08-27T15:27:13.748-07:002016-08-27T15:27:13.748-07:00Why can't someone fly and pump at the same tim...Why can't someone fly and pump at the same time? It's been awhile since my wife did that, but I don't remember it taking any effort or focus.Brethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15063508651955739056noreply@blogger.com