tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post3047550194225401516..comments2023-10-31T03:18:26.963-07:00Comments on Great Guys Weblog: Going backwardsBrethttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15063508651955739056noreply@blogger.comBlogger23125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-37641093641082567362007-10-07T12:30:00.000-07:002007-10-07T12:30:00.000-07:00Most have not been even superficially socialist.Most have not been even superficially socialist.Harry Eagarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04196202758858876402noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-71780384605808922282007-10-06T12:28:00.000-07:002007-10-06T12:28:00.000-07:00Junta is merely a rhetorical trope for the ruling ...Junta is merely a rhetorical trope for the ruling party in Latin America.erphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09826044412670324694noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-49812230061564696262007-10-06T11:05:00.000-07:002007-10-06T11:05:00.000-07:00Wherever did you get the idea that Latin juntas we...Wherever did you get the idea that Latin juntas were socialist?<BR/><BR/>Remember the story about the two guys being chased by a bear? One stops to put on his track shoes.<BR/><BR/>"Why are you doing that?" the other asks. "You'll still never outrun that bear."<BR/><BR/>"I only have to outrun you."Harry Eagarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04196202758858876402noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-40517897901230224892007-10-04T09:01:00.000-07:002007-10-04T09:01:00.000-07:00Starry eyed. I wish. In a capitalistic system, t...Starry eyed. I wish. In a capitalistic system, there's a chance for the little guy, in a socialist system, the little guy like everyone else, not in the ruling junta, is doomed to poverty.erphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09826044412670324694noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-91225772820638944822007-10-04T06:16:00.000-07:002007-10-04T06:16:00.000-07:00We don't have a starry eyed view of how Latins liv...We don't have a starry eyed view of how Latins live, we have a clear eyed view of what Leftists governments do. We also see that while capitalism doesn't deliver paradise or instant wealth, it does deliver over time very substantial benefits to even the poorest people, as the statistics from Bolivia (<STRONG>your</STRONG> example) show.Susan's Husbandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02862667802025231163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-15121933317189582132007-10-03T23:08:00.000-07:002007-10-03T23:08:00.000-07:00I thought the original question was pretty artful,...I thought the original question was pretty artful, the one about why people would embrace a Chavez.<BR/><BR/>There's probably a reason they did, and it's probably not that they wanted their income halved.<BR/><BR/>I must say you guys seem to have a starry-eyed view about how Latins live. All equally striving, as erp says, and no one falling behind except for his own fecklessness.Harry Eagarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04196202758858876402noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-72484190724022607642007-10-03T22:50:00.000-07:002007-10-03T22:50:00.000-07:00joe,That's a good question.But I think a question ...joe,<BR/><BR/>That's a good question.<BR/><BR/>But I think a question that's at least as important is: how much smaller (or bigger) is Venezuela's GDP gonna be because Hugo? If in 20 years it ends up being 1/2 of what it would've been, Hugo's take will be insignificant relative to what his mismanagement will have cost his people.Brethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15063508651955739056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-2602453058892052332007-10-03T18:29:00.000-07:002007-10-03T18:29:00.000-07:00Ask an artfully constructed question, get an artfu...Ask an artfully constructed question, get an artfully constructed answer, I should think. So, here is a (hopefully) more straightforward one. How much of Venezuela is going to get redistributed to people not named Hugo Chavez, between now and whenever Hugo Chavez's next term expires?joe shropshirehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12183662262318452612noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-35227753450832068902007-10-03T13:19:00.000-07:002007-10-03T13:19:00.000-07:00"if you don't think parental income has something ..."if you don't think parental income has something to do with neonatal death rates, you haven't been paying attention"<BR/><BR/>No one has been discussing that. The operative phrase, again, is "parents can't afford to raise children".Susan's Husbandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02862667802025231163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-4023488058922806962007-10-03T11:50:00.000-07:002007-10-03T11:50:00.000-07:00Harry, once again you outdo yourself. Certainly, I...Harry, once again you outdo yourself. <BR/><BR/>Certainly, I could have recalled from my European History classes half a century ago that churchmen were exempt from taxes in France had I thought it was relevant to the povrecitos in South America whom we've discussing. BTW - Churches in the US are also exempt from taxes even as we speak. <BR/><BR/>Sorry I have to lay down now, my head's spinning going from century to century and from continent to continent. Get back to you later. Thanks for the ride.erphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09826044412670324694noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-65594646892617707632007-10-03T09:41:00.000-07:002007-10-03T09:41:00.000-07:00'... the landowners also support income redistribu...'... the landowners also support income redistribution, only in the opposite direction ...'<BR/><BR/>What do you think this means? Do you recall from your European history that churchmen were exempt from taxes in France? That's the sort of income redistribution I meant.<BR/><BR/>Some of the 'facts' being thrown at me are, shall we say, artfully constructed. <BR/><BR/>To take one example, in 1960 the US minimum wage was 75 cents/hr.<BR/><BR/>I doubt any sector of Venezuelan labor was really making 56 cents/hr, although it's possible that zkilled workers in the oil sector were.<BR/><BR/>A large fraction of Venezuelan workers were then sharecroppers. Many probably didn't have any cash income -- thus, no marriage licenses.<BR/><BR/>And if you don't think parental income has something to do with neonatal death rates, you haven't been paying attention.Harry Eagarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04196202758858876402noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-9531401914624159142007-10-03T06:28:00.000-07:002007-10-03T06:28:00.000-07:00Darn it SH, how cruel can you be serving up facts ...Darn it SH, how cruel can you be serving up facts instead of cherished dogma?erphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09826044412670324694noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-81562092318411021062007-10-02T21:33:00.000-07:002007-10-02T21:33:00.000-07:00Neo-natal death rates are irrelevant to your point...Neo-natal death rates are irrelevant to your point.<BR/><BR/>1) they're not an effect of parents not being able to afford to raise children.<BR/>2) You provide no evidence that the rates are different now than 10 years ago, or 100, or 1000.<BR/>3) Die-offs result in dieing off, not a lower rate of population growth.<BR/><BR/>If parents really couldn't afford to raise children, the population would disappear. That hasn't happened, which makes your claim hyperbole at best.<BR/><BR/>But let me quote from the <A HREF="http://www.census.gov/ipc/prod/ib-9801.pdf" REL="nofollow">Census Bureau</A>:<BR/><BR/>— — — <BR/>The total fertility rate has declined by a third since 1970. Nevertheless, Bolivia has one of the highest total fertility rates among all countries of Central and South America.<BR/><BR/>[...]<BR/><BR/>Indicators of health and mortality show steady improvements.<BR/><BR/>[...]<BR/><BR/>Bolivia managed to triple its population since 1950 and is currently growing at an annual rate of 2.0 percent.<BR/><BR/>[...]<BR/><BR/>The infant mortality rate was 180<BR/>per 1,000 births in 1950 and was<BR/>above 100 in 1976, but by 1998<BR/>had fallen to 64.<BR/>— — — <BR/><BR/>Do you have better data than this? Or any data that supports your claim?Susan's Husbandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02862667802025231163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-5262483600513635642007-10-02T19:48:00.000-07:002007-10-02T19:48:00.000-07:00Harry, in your own words:... the landowners also s...Harry, in your own words:<BR/><BR/>... <I>the landowners also support income redistribution, only in the opposite direction ... </I>erphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09826044412670324694noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-48075487695892321332007-10-02T19:34:00.000-07:002007-10-02T19:34:00.000-07:00It would be more impressive if you tried to refute...It would be more impressive if you tried to refute what I did say rather than what I never said.<BR/><BR/>In Latin America -- we're talking about Latin America, right? -- White terror has exceeded red by an order of magnitude. I cannot explain that. It just is.<BR/><BR/>erp, income was not redistributed from the poor to the rich. The rich held on to the assets. The poor never saw them.<BR/><BR/>SH, there's been a mass die-off. It's just not the kind that you see unless you look for it. What do you suppose the death rate of babies in the Bolivian altiplano is?<BR/><BR/>It's true, they're just Indians, but I think we ought to count them anyway.Harry Eagarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04196202758858876402noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-18678172440417764722007-10-02T16:24:00.000-07:002007-10-02T16:24:00.000-07:00*cough*<A HREF="http://hrw.org/english/docs/2002/04/15/colomb3848.htm" REL="nofollow">*cough*</A>joe shropshirehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12183662262318452612noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-75888729883160109272007-10-02T12:37:00.000-07:002007-10-02T12:37:00.000-07:00Mr. Eager;You're obviously wrong about Latin Ameri...Mr. Eager;<BR/><BR/>You're obviously wrong about Latin Americans being able to afford to raise children, given the absence of any mass die off.<BR/><BR/>Howard;<BR/><BR/>As for lack of red terror, I think Mr. Eager was referring specifically to Latin America. The Castro regime and the <A HREF="http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-10642869.html" REL="nofollow">Sandinistas</A> provided plenty of red terror, so I would be curious to read some specific examples of left regimes in Latin American that didn't engage in red terror. I think the jury is still out on Venezuela. Bolivia, perhaps?Susan's Husbandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02862667802025231163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-18446886281422681752007-10-02T11:20:00.000-07:002007-10-02T11:20:00.000-07:00Harry, gotta love ya. Income was redistributed fro...Harry, gotta love ya. Income was redistributed from the poverty stricken who couldn't afford a marriage license to make the rich richer. Good trick. There's no trick to prosperity. Leave people alone to fend for themselves, they're remarkably good at it.erphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09826044412670324694noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-27231261578519440152007-10-02T10:27:00.000-07:002007-10-02T10:27:00.000-07:00Harry,in Venezuela there really is enough wealth t...Harry,<BR/><BR/><I>in Venezuela there really is enough wealth to go around.</I><BR/><BR/>If wealth is viewed as some fixed quantity to be distributed as dictated by politics that leads in one direction; if wealth is viewed as the creation of a dynamic process that evolves and expands, that's another matter.<BR/><BR/>from linked to article:<BR/><I>The Central Bank was autonomous, the marginal income tax rate was 12 percent, the public sector absorbed no more than one-fifth of the nation's production and the government ran surpluses every year. By 1960, the average Venezuela worker earned 84 cents for every dollar made by the average American worker.</I><BR/><BR/><B>By 1960, the average Venezuela worker earned 84 cents for every dollar made by the average American worker.</B><BR/><BR/>seems like somekind of economic advance...<BR/><BR/><I>What is hard to explain is why the left revolutions have been comparatively free of Red Terror, despite the fact that the right counterrevolutions have been paradigms of White Terror.</I><BR/><BR/>no terror <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/Black-Book-Communism-Crimes-Repression/dp/0674076087" REL="nofollow">here</A>???Howardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14980738175201874292noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-86163474595589810202007-10-02T09:55:00.000-07:002007-10-02T09:55:00.000-07:00They can't. Therefore, they support just about any...They can't. <BR/><BR/>Therefore, they support just about any moves toward income redistribution. (Of course, the landowners also support income redistribution, only in the opposite direction and they don't call it that.)<BR/><BR/>Unlike some other Latin countries, in Venezuela there really is enough wealth to go around. It just doesn't.Harry Eagarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04196202758858876402noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-23482918644906198182007-10-02T00:00:00.000-07:002007-10-02T00:00:00.000-07:00If they can't afford a marriage license, how can t...If they can't afford a marriage license, how can they afford to raise the kids ?<BR/><BR/>Or is it a case of cash-poor subsistence farming ?Oroboroushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01710250012500728430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-75581922365069477262007-10-01T23:49:00.000-07:002007-10-01T23:49:00.000-07:00Anybody who thinks that a Catholic country where h...Anybody who thinks that a Catholic country where half the babies were born illegitimate because their parents couldn't afford the price of a marriage license had been economically advancing hasn't been paying attention.<BR/><BR/>The preference of the downtrodden in Latin America for Anybody But ... is not hard to explain. What do they have to lose?<BR/><BR/>What is hard to explain is why the left revolutions have been comparatively free of Red Terror, despite the fact that the right counterrevolutions have been paradigms of White Terror.<BR/><BR/>It can't be oil if it happens all over. All over doesn't have oil.Harry Eagarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04196202758858876402noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-24747772819399101782007-09-27T20:06:00.000-07:002007-09-27T20:06:00.000-07:00In the words of the immortal Tom Lehrer, so simple...In the words of the immortal Tom Lehrer, so simple even a child can do it.erphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09826044412670324694noreply@blogger.com