tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post3929400685684104367..comments2023-10-31T03:18:26.963-07:00Comments on Great Guys Weblog: deja vu - escaping povertyBrethttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15063508651955739056noreply@blogger.comBlogger61125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-47894314157476059112015-05-15T13:57:52.514-07:002015-05-15T13:57:52.514-07:00'Why do you think with 60,000 suppliers that a...'Why do you think with 60,000 suppliers that anybody at Walmart who could've prevented this would've known?'<br /><br />Because Wal-Mart controls everything; Wal-Mart store managers are not even allowed to turn on the lights. It's all -- and I do mean all -- controlled fron Bentonville.<br /><br />'Any amount of money you put into anything other than food in Bangladesh means someone doesn't eat. It's very simple.'<br /><br />So the hills of refuge in the coastal zone were a needless extravagance?Harry Eagarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04196202758858876402noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-64865834341322940472015-05-13T05:49:31.089-07:002015-05-13T05:49:31.089-07:00The same as any other statement in a blog: it only...The same as any other statement in a blog: it only implies lost bits and time you put out there.Clovishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08921327103613284595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-66824606610563322572015-05-13T05:39:33.254-07:002015-05-13T05:39:33.254-07:00Clovis;
Let's posit progressives are all reck...Clovis;<br /><br /><i>Let's posit progressives are all reckless and stupid</i><br /><br />Why?<br /><br />I'd rather consider something actually in this discussion, that is your quote in my posit. I'm curious as to what you think are the implications of your statement.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-21712566199307042422015-05-13T05:28:56.209-07:002015-05-13T05:28:56.209-07:00AOG,
---
Based on what? Apparently not a lower ra...AOG,<br /><br />---<br />Based on what? Apparently not a lower rate of accidents in the American past of this nature.<br />---<br />I believe I could argue even that - most probably a correlation that takes account of severity and rate will show the US as safer even then. But I won't lose more time arguing anything on this subject, I don't think people here are approaching it with an open mind.<br /><br />---<br />Let's posit that "Bangladeshi's garment industry owners are reckless and stupid". Therefore...?<br />---<br />Let's posit progressives are all reckless and stupid. Therefore...?Clovishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08921327103613284595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-85231543970817876022015-05-12T18:05:39.513-07:002015-05-12T18:05:39.513-07:00Clovis;
it is my claim that in US culture, back ...Clovis;<br /><br /><i> it is my claim that in US culture, back then and now, you won't find the same level of disregard for the life of fellow citizens and/or employees as in Bangladesh</i><br /><br />Based on what? Apparently not a lower rate of accidents in the American past of this nature.<br /><br />Let's posit that "Bangladeshi's garment industry owners are reckless and stupid". Therefore...?<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-41977705072822857992015-05-12T13:17:03.565-07:002015-05-12T13:17:03.565-07:00Bret,
---
What is certainly true is that I rarely...Bret,<br /><br />---<br />What is certainly true is that I rarely take criticism to entrepreneurs seriously except from other entrepreneurs [...]<br />---<br />I see, who am I to criticize those truly illuminated by market wisdom?<br /><br />You could as well have upfronted that opinion in your first comment, so I wouldn't waste your precious time with my ignorance.<br /><br />---<br />But why the focus on this one event?<br />---<br />I did not focus on one, rather I gave you too and easily could have given dozens. As any other Google user can attest.<br /><br />---<br />Why is it so important?<br />---<br />I did not bring it up first, but I believe it was brought up to make context for the claims in this thread. IMO it illustrates the weak logic behind this post, where everything can and should be justified for the greater good of "escaping poverty". <br /><br />---<br />Are there any concrete actions that can possibly be taken be me or you with the knowledge of this one event?<br />---<br />Is this the criterium for everything we usually discuss in this forum?Clovishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08921327103613284595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-38546636988094461982015-05-12T11:09:37.047-07:002015-05-12T11:09:37.047-07:00It turns out that according to the Left, American ...It turns out that according to the Left, American entrepreneurs are equally callous as the Bangladeshis. From http://www.hoover.org/research/political-economy-nail-salons :<br /><br />"<i>In this age of strong populist discontent with the state of American labor markets, Nir does not pull any punches in condemning the abusive practices in this rapidly growing industry, which is largely serviced by Korean, Chinese, Nepalese, and Hispanic women: “Manicurists are routinely underpaid and exploited, and endure ethnic bias and other abuse.” Her investigation documents the tyrannical practices of the small business owners who employ the manicurists. Whatever the benefits of cheap manicures may be for the people of New York City and nearby communities, Nir argues that they exact a human toll, moral and physical, on the young immigrant women of Asia and Latin America.</i>"<br /><br />Poisoning our manicurists. For shame!Brethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15063508651955739056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-13185462124215697002015-05-12T10:30:00.980-07:002015-05-12T10:30:00.980-07:00Clovis wrote: "You try to cloth it in some so...Clovis wrote: "<i>You try to cloth it in some sort of harsh realism about life...</i>"<br /><br />I'm actually trying to clothe it in terms of tradeoffs which is what this post is about. I think the Bangladeshis would do well to encourage entrepreneurs and business activity as much as possible <i>even if some of those business owners are going to be reckless and stupid and even if some catastrophic events occur ending in death.</i> In the not-so-long-run, I feel that the Bangladeshis will be, overall, better off with <i>more</i> business, not less, and I find the American Leftists carping from the sidelines about this one incident over and over (this is at least the third time Harry has brought it up here), is hugely counterproductive for the Bangladeshis and poor people everywhere.<br /><br />I think it's extraordinarily unlikely that you can simultaneously get Bangladeshis to focus on safety while encouraging business development. I see zero evidence that that's possible and significant evidence to the contrary (GDP of $1,100 and reckless and stupid owners abound apparently).<br /><br />Clovis wrote: "<i>...criticism to entrepreneurs is taken too personally.</i>"<br /><br />Perhaps. What is certainly true is that I rarely take criticism to entrepreneurs seriously <i>except</i> from other entrepreneurs because I'm convinced that those who haven't started and run businesses have no idea how hard it is since I certainly didn't before I did it. In other words, go start a business or two, and let me know if you still feel the same way. Otherwise, sorry, I don't feel you have the experience and knowledge base with which to understand the tradeoffs that business owners face.<br /><br />Clovis wrote: "<i>...thinking those Bangladeshi can't possibly act based on Right and Wrong in the middle of their dire poverty.</i>"<br /><br />Of course they can and yes, it's wrong to lock people in a burning building (though I don't trust MSM reporting on the subject so I'm not even vaguely convinced that that's what happened).<br /><br />But why the focus on this one event? Why is it so important? Are there any concrete actions that can possibly be taken be me or you with the knowledge of this one event?Brethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15063508651955739056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-42156461682648662752015-05-12T10:07:40.655-07:002015-05-12T10:07:40.655-07:00Bret,
I can't tell what Harry feels, but don&...Bret,<br /><br />I can't tell what Harry feels, but don't think you display any disregard for Bangladeshi's human life when buying at Walmart. <br /><br />IMO though, you do display such disregard when you downplay the extent to which Bangladeshi's garment industry owners are reckless and stupid. You try to cloth it in some sort of harsh realism about life, but maybe it is you who have some hidden agenda where any criticism to entrepreneurs is taken too personally.<br /><br />Lately, I often find myself siding with conservatives in their criticism to liberals who bill any human misbehavior on money and external conditions, to the expense of any view touching the role of character and moral fiber.<br /><br />You are practicing here a bit of the same, by thinking those Bangladeshi can't possibly act based on Right and Wrong in the middle of their dire poverty.<br />Clovishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08921327103613284595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-85119543797932329102015-05-12T09:59:47.029-07:002015-05-12T09:59:47.029-07:00Clovis wrote: "Hundreds of people die every y...Clovis wrote: "<i>Hundreds of people die every year in those factories.</i>"<br /><br />I have to assume far more than hundreds. There are thousands of occupational deaths in the United States every year. Many of them potentially preventable.<br /><br />When I'm out in the world of agriculture, I see employee actions that are intensely risky. These actions would get them fired on the spot if the employer saw them do it and are illegal to boot. For example, drivers jump off moving tractors to inspect the operation of the equipment being pulled by the tractor, then they run to catch the tractor and jump back on. Just this one activity problem kills 10 people a year.<br /><br />Crop duster pilots repeatedly fly under power wires (or just over) while spraying fields. These guys die all the time.<br /><br />Work is risky. Life is risky.Brethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15063508651955739056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-43333629191979840532015-05-12T09:45:56.499-07:002015-05-12T09:45:56.499-07:00Clovis wrote: "...you won't find the same...Clovis wrote: "<i>...you won't find the same level of disregard for the life of fellow citizens and/or employees as in Bangladesh.</i>"<br /><br />I don't really know Bangladeshi culture, so I'll have to take your word for it.<br /><br />My impression though, is Harry's feeling is that since we buy from Walmart who buys from a supplier who buys from Bangladeshi factories, we have the exact same disregard for human life as those in Bangladesh. Or am I misinterpreting where Harry (and now to some extent you) has been taking this.Brethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15063508651955739056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-55238700818386882522015-05-12T09:40:58.369-07:002015-05-12T09:40:58.369-07:00Bret,
---
Do tragedies happen like this all the t...Bret,<br /><br />---<br />Do tragedies happen like this all the time? No, it's moderately rare even for a place like Bangladesh.<br />---<br />Wrong. It is not rare at all in Bangladesh. Hundreds of people die every year in those factories. And it has been so for many years now.<br /><br />There are many levels between tragedies "that could possibly have been prevented". We are talking here about the most dire levels, where they could have been prevented by basic and, many times, costless acts.<br /><br /><br />---<br />makes me suspicious, as if there's a hidden agenda (for example, anti-capitalism or anti-Walmart), as opposed to any real and realistic concern.<br />---<br />If you want me to label as anti-capitalist for my views presented here, it is your call. I do frequently buy at Walmart down here in Brazil though (and did so even as a tourist in the US too), and I can't recall writing something against them in your blog yet (or any other blog, for what it's worth).<br /><br />May it be that your need to look for some hidden agenda is betraying yourself?Clovishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08921327103613284595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-35475694412605446632015-05-12T09:38:03.344-07:002015-05-12T09:38:03.344-07:00Clovis wrote: "I do believe I can find a reas...Clovis wrote: "<i>I do believe I can find a reasonable number of managers who would not lock people up to burn to death.</i>"<br /><br />Sure. Nearly all of them given that this particular incident was pretty unique and rare, even for Bangladesh.Brethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15063508651955739056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-9202712287325058122015-05-12T09:32:22.715-07:002015-05-12T09:32:22.715-07:00AOG,
---
If you find a way to always hire manager...AOG,<br /><br />---<br />If you find a way to always hire managers who know what they're doing, drop out of physics and go in to business, you'll be rich.<br />---<br />I do believe I can find a reasonable number of managers who would not lock people up to burn to death. <br /><br />I even think that's so easy that pretty much anyone willing to find those managers could do it too, so that's not going to make me rich.<br /><br />---<br />Is your claim things like those fires did not happen in US history?<br />---<br />No, it is my claim that in US culture, back then and now, you won't find the same level of disregard for the life of fellow citizens and/or employees as in Bangladesh.Clovishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08921327103613284595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-17192961119530528612015-05-12T08:47:27.242-07:002015-05-12T08:47:27.242-07:00Clovis,
I'm not finding your arguments convin...Clovis,<br /><br />I'm not finding your arguments convincing. I'm confident in my belief that:<br /><br />* those workers had a choice to work in that dangerous factory and/or other dangerous factories like it or not at all.<br /><br />* if they had chosen not to work, they wouldn't've eaten or at least been in dire straits.<br /><br />* there is no societal organization for a poor country like Bangladesh that will avoid all situations like that<br /><br />* there have been dozens of cases in the United States where hundreds of people have died in tragedies that could possibly have been prevented<br /><br />Was it a tragedy? Yes. If I could wave a magic wand and make such tragedies never happen (without causing alternate tragedies such as higher unemployment, lower opportunity, etc.) would I do so? Yes. Will that happen? No. Do tragedies happen like this all the time? No, it's moderately rare even for a place like Bangladesh.<br /><br />In all honesty, Harry's (and now your) focus on this one incident in a world where 200,000 people die each day (i.e. 1,100 is hardly a blip), makes me suspicious, as if there's a hidden agenda (for example, anti-capitalism or anti-Walmart), as opposed to any real and realistic concern.Brethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15063508651955739056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-17655694898926893562015-05-12T08:22:23.292-07:002015-05-12T08:22:23.292-07:00How so much more expensive would be for them to ha...<i>How so much more expensive would be for them to have managers who knew better?</i><br /><br />This could only be written by someone who hasn't had to actually interview and hire people. If you find a way to always hire managers who know what they're doing, drop out of physics and go in to business, you'll be rich.<br /><br />I would also note you wrote this - "when the US was 50 times poorer so long ago, would its entrepreneurs display the same disregard for the life of its employees?". Bret asked you about it and your long response was not in fact responsive. Is your claim things like those fires did not happen in US history?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-16183949328941226372015-05-12T06:58:02.809-07:002015-05-12T06:58:02.809-07:00Bret,
---
Even if so, perhaps he bought stuff fro...Bret,<br /><br />---<br />Even if so, perhaps he bought stuff from other businesses so that those business could employ people so the employees could buy food.<br />---<br />And if the stuff he bought from other businesses was directed to improve his factory safety a bit, it suddenly wouldn't contribute anymore to "employ people so the employees could buy food"?<br /><br /><br />---<br />I'm not following. You think that workers were never killed on the job in the US 200 years ago? Or today? <br />---<br />Maybe you are not following for lack of information.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/10/world/asia/owners-of-bangladesh-factory-surrender-in-deadly-fire.html" rel="nofollow">Tazreen factory fire</a>, 2012:<br /><br />"On the night of the fire, more than 1,150 people were in the eight-story building, working on a tight deadline to fill orders for international buyers. When the fire broke out and an alarm sounded, some managers told their employees to ignore the alarm and continue to work."<br />[...] "noting that some of his managers closed collapsible gates to block workers from running down staircases."<br /><br />How so much more expensive would be for them to have managers who knew better?<br /><br />They were lucky only 112 (of 1150) employees died. Because one year later, there was the Rana plaza factory collapse, where 1130 died (of 2500), and there we have it again:<br /><br />"The Bangladeshi news media reported that inspection teams had discovered cracks in the structure of Rana Plaza on Tuesday. Shops and a bank branch on the lower floors immediately closed. But the owners of the garment factories on the upper floors ordered employees to work on Wednesday, despite the safety risks."<br /><br />Terribly expensive to have people in charge that actually knows what huge cracks in the structure means?<br /><br /><br />As I said before, it is really cheap - in fact, it gives you great economy by saving you of greater trouble - to implement very basic safety standards, Bret.Clovishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08921327103613284595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-73457074981256912562015-05-11T20:20:13.330-07:002015-05-11T20:20:13.330-07:00Clovis wrote: "The owner of that factory sure...Clovis wrote: "<i>The owner of that factory surely applied his money in many things other than food.</i>"<br /><br />Maybe. Do you have conclusive evidence for that? Even if so, perhaps he bought stuff from other businesses so that those business could employ people so the employees could buy food.<br /><br />If he put more money into the facility, he likely would've paid them less. Below a certain ROI, things don't happen, companies don't start, people don't get hired, and then they starve.<br /><br />Ten times poorer than Brazil, Clovis. At $1,100 GDP per capita, the vast majority of money is going towards food.<br /><br />Clovis wrote: "<i>...when the US was 50 times poorer so long ago, would its entrepreneurs display the same disregard for the life of its employees?</i>"<br /><br />I'm not following. You think that workers were never killed on the job in the US 200 years ago? Or today? Up until recently, there have always been plenty of high-risk jobs in the US (and everywhere else) and plenty of people willing to take them.Brethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15063508651955739056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-23697140523240753332015-05-11T18:29:36.969-07:002015-05-11T18:29:36.969-07:00Bret,
That's a fallacy, and a cheap one at th...Bret,<br /><br />That's a fallacy, and a cheap one at that.<br /><br />The owner of that factory surely applied his money in many things other than food.<br /><br />Try to think it this way: when the US was 50 times poorer so long ago, would its entrepreneurs display the same disregard for the life of its employees?<br /><br />I think both Harry and you miss the point by framing it as purely a matter of capital. It's more a matter of culture.Clovishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08921327103613284595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-33178188828285702342015-05-11T17:09:35.343-07:002015-05-11T17:09:35.343-07:00Clovis,
GDP per capita US: $55,000
GDP per capita...Clovis,<br /><br />GDP per capita US: $55,000<br />GDP per capita Brazil: $11,000<br />GDP per capita Bangladesh: $1,100<br /><br />Brazil is ten times richer than Bangladesh, the US is 50 times richer.<br /><br />Any amount of money you put into anything other than food in Bangladesh means someone doesn't eat. It's very simple.<br />Brethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15063508651955739056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-84765569840051642382015-05-11T16:59:03.562-07:002015-05-11T16:59:03.562-07:00Bret,
Why do you think they wouldn't have job...Bret,<br /><br />Why do you think they wouldn't have jobs if the factory had to be a safer place?<br /><br />Law of diminishing returns applies here too, but in the inverse: safety requirements may be expensive and look excessive in places like the US, but in places like Bangladesh you can add a lot of safety very cheaply, for they start from a much lower level.Clovishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08921327103613284595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-53025449324015789612015-05-11T13:02:38.238-07:002015-05-11T13:02:38.238-07:00Harry wrote: "They did not get paid more for ...Harry wrote: "<i>They did not get paid more for working in an unsafe factory than working in a deathtrap.</i>"<br /><br />Why do you think they would've had jobs if they didn't work there? Why do you think the factory owner would've been able to hire the workers if not for Walmart? Why do you think with 60,000 suppliers that anybody at Walmart who could've prevented this would've known?Brethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15063508651955739056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-13697290236443708672015-05-11T12:51:50.110-07:002015-05-11T12:51:50.110-07:00Ricardo is terrific, but you need to add some Bast...Ricardo is terrific, but you need to add some Bastiat to your analysis at a bare minimum.Howardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14980738175201874292noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-75358315735272978822015-05-11T12:43:37.684-07:002015-05-11T12:43:37.684-07:00Ricardo lives. As I have said often enough.
Howev...Ricardo lives. As I have said often enough.<br /><br />However, the Bangladeshi disaster was a perfect example of the 'fireproof hotel' phenomenon, which in turn is the ultimate logical reaction to free market economics.<br /><br />The risk/reward assumption from electing to build a collapsible factory adhered not to the workers: for them it was all risk, no reward. They did not get paid more for working in an unsafe factory than working in a deathtrap.<br /><br />The economic reward came to the factory owner, as long as the building did not fall. He had a chance to get rich, or, as he presumably thought, a smaller chance of killing a thousand people and being prosecuted.<br /><br />Wal-Mart knew of the situation but chose to be complicit. I'll let you work out the percentage gain to its bottom line and stock valuation. <br /><br />Harry Eagarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04196202758858876402noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-5761211000398601172015-05-11T11:11:59.876-07:002015-05-11T11:11:59.876-07:00... bbbbut Bret if they lived in a socialist parad...... bbbbut Bret if they lived in a socialist paradise, they wouldn't have to have child labor. Remember, it's from all according to their abilities; to all according to their needs -- to be determined by people like Harry.erphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09826044412670324694noreply@blogger.com