tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post84742934750102819..comments2023-10-31T03:18:26.963-07:00Comments on Great Guys Weblog: Hypocrisy on ParadeBrethttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15063508651955739056noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-5866578806758601832017-02-07T11:40:00.450-08:002017-02-07T11:40:00.450-08:00[Peter:] Yeah, I don't fully understand why hy...<i>[Peter:] Yeah, I don't fully understand why hypocrisy has become the ultimate modern sin.</i><br /><br />A lot of times, as you say, hypocrisy masks sin. Clearly, that isn't the case here.<br /><br />It's still hypocrisy, though.<br /><br />Most telling is that his utilitarian morality, it didn't survive first contact with reality.<br /><br />I would hope the result would be world wide dumpstering of his books.Hey Skipperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10798930502187234974noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-42530266810983908982017-02-07T11:37:22.151-08:002017-02-07T11:37:22.151-08:00[Bret:] Well, I'm not claiming to be an expert...<i>[Bret:] Well, I'm not claiming to be an expert on phringe philosophies, but my understanding was that in the general case under utilitarianism, that different people could value things differently.</i><br /><br />(I see what you did there)<br /><br />I am not an expert, either. While I haven't read any Singer beyond articles he has published, I have read about his positions. He makes a great deal of hay out of the notion of consciousness and sentience -- they are some sort of gold standard of existential worth. If a bird, say a gray parrot, is more aware and intelligent than, say, a two day old infant, then the parrot's life is to preferred above the infants.<br /><br />Now, as a thought provoking device to cause people to question how elevated humans are above other animals, that is fine. But he goes further, to attacking the whole concept of "speciesism": that there is no way to elevate the importance of one over another.<br /><br />So, to the extent I have this right, Singer asserts there is an objective way to value lives, and that many times we value incorrectly.<br /><br />Hey Skipperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10798930502187234974noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-76806799841438263912017-02-07T10:01:58.794-08:002017-02-07T10:01:58.794-08:00Lots of us didn't think Obama had anything to ...Lots of us didn't think Obama had anything to apologize for concerning US actions.erphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09826044412670324694noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-13677715743320103392017-02-07T09:41:13.822-08:002017-02-07T09:41:13.822-08:00I was going to say I don't mind my own contrad...I was going to say I don't mind my own contradictions and hypocrisy. Ya know, "a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" (according to Emerson) and all that.<br /><br />Of course, I don't at all mind pointing on contradictions and hypocrisy in others. Yes, yes, I know, that's very hypocritical, but tough, no hobgoblins here! :-)Brethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15063508651955739056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-43227413723820427322017-02-07T09:27:24.042-08:002017-02-07T09:27:24.042-08:00Yeah, I don't fully understand why hypocrisy h...Yeah, I don't fully understand why hypocrisy has become the ultimate modern sin. I guess a lot has to do with Freud and the therapeutic culture. We seem to have become fixated with probing our messy little psyches and proclaiming to the world whatever we find there in the name of honesty. No civilization could survive without a healthy dose of hypocrisy. Not many marriages either.Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15836910211382887430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-82879313252306413812017-02-07T09:05:18.770-08:002017-02-07T09:05:18.770-08:00I am getting to the conclusion that contradiction ...I am getting to the conclusion that contradiction is the main thing that set us as humans.<br /><br />What differentiates Singer from, say, Skipper, who would complain of Obama's apology tours but voted for the guy who equated Putin to America?<br /><br />Sorry to bring politics to this thread, but hypocrisy is what connects them. And us all, apparently.<br />Clovishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08921327103613284595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-85445464770746888962017-02-07T05:21:41.739-08:002017-02-07T05:21:41.739-08:00I'm not sure I can get too into condemning a g...I'm not sure I can get too into condemning a guy with a noxious philosophy as a hypocrite for doing the right thing in his personal life. Isn't it usually the other way around? I've enjoyed many pleasant hours criticizing and condemning Dawkins, but I don't think I'd jump all over the guy because he found himself praying during a high-risk operation for one of his kids.Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15836910211382887430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-71525699286282620032017-02-06T21:18:45.649-08:002017-02-06T21:18:45.649-08:00Well, I'm not claiming to be an expert on phri...Well, I'm not claiming to be an expert on phringe philosophies, but my understanding was that in the general case under utilitarianism, that different people could value things differently. Then, given everybody's value of everything, the idea was to maximize that sum total of all of those values.<br /><br />If it's something else, then ok, I'll take your word for it.Brethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15063508651955739056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-24401816349685732182017-02-06T20:40:59.351-08:002017-02-06T20:40:59.351-08:00[Bret:] General utilitarianism would not inherentl...<i>[Bret:] General utilitarianism would not inherently conclude that the mother must die.</i><br /><br />It would, if in turn another, more "valuable" life could be saved.<br /><br />Where value, again a wholly human contingent term, is treated as if it exists outside human definition.<br /><br />Hey Skipperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10798930502187234974noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-79667917291732062352017-02-06T19:37:18.989-08:002017-02-06T19:37:18.989-08:00Hey Skipper,
I'll take your word for it. I do...Hey Skipper,<br /><br />I'll take your word for it. I don't know enough about Singer's particular brand of utilitarianism, to make any useful comments.<br /><br />General utilitarianism would not inherently conclude that the mother must die.Brethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15063508651955739056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-10259236132482899812017-02-06T18:45:55.414-08:002017-02-06T18:45:55.414-08:00Here is the fatal error: Humans are meaningful;
W...Here is the fatal error: <i>Humans are meaningful;</i><br /><br />What, exactly, does that mean? That humans have a meaning that is ascertainable from outside humanity.<br /><br />Bollocks. Pure nonsense.<br /><br />Meaning has no meaning outside humanity. Meaning does not have an existence of its own. Meaning exists only so long as humans exist.<br /><br />On a utilitarian level, it is easy to see how donating $10,000 to the Susan G. Komen foundation, while it might make the donor's chest swell with pride, is far less meaningful than donating $10,000 for mosquito nets in malarial Africa. After all, untold millions have ended up in the Komen coffers, and has saved scarcely any lives. Money sent there is criminal altruism, because it, in effect, condemned many people to malarial death.<br /><br />That is seemingly difficult to argue against.<br /><br />Rusty the Alaskan Wilderness Adventure Dog is getting on. Odds are that within a year or so, he will develop a cancer that we could spend a couple thousand dollars treating, and maybe extend his life a year. Lots of people spend that kind of money on their pets. But look at that in comparison to the <a href="https://www.garysinisefoundation.org/" rel="nofollow">Lt. Dan foundation.</a><br /><br />In what moral universe does it pass muster to extend a dog's life by a year, rather than help a wounded veteran?<br /><br />Not in mine, it doesn't, because I attribute less meaning to a dog that has been part of my life for a dozen years than a veteran I've never met, and will never know. However, since meaning has no existence outside humanity, then meaning isn't a fixed concept. Put the way I have, when deciding how to allocate a portion of my life (which is what a couple thousand dollars represents), then it may well be more meaningful for me to spend that money on a dog, rather than a person.<br /><br />(Don't tell Rusty, but for that very reason, he isn't a $2,000 dog. Your dollarage may vary.)<br /><br />But wait, there's more.<br /><br />Money donated now to the Komen foundation may not save any lives now, but presuming cancer is a problem within the reach of human ken, it might very well be nudging the ball along, no matter how incrementally, to saving millions of lives. Singer ignores time.<br /><br />But it isn't just time, or meaning, that Singer misses. The provision of mosquito nets, or clean water, arent't down nearly so much to lack of charity as they are to crappy governance. Which means sending money to buy mosquito nets in some part serves to enable the very governmental pathologies that created the lack in the first place.<br /><br />Those aren't the only obvious problems that philosophers and thinkers somehow managed to miss, but that should be enough for a start.Hey Skipperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10798930502187234974noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-18042052736981326852017-02-06T18:16:35.875-08:002017-02-06T18:16:35.875-08:00[Bret:] How is that hypocritical?
Because in advo...<i>[Bret:] How is that hypocritical?</i><br /><br />Because in advocating utilitarian altruism, Singer would insist it was a moral failure. After all, how is one to justify, say, $60,000 spent over a year to prolong the life of one woman who is scarcely aware of her own existence when the same money could save, oh, I don't know, 50 people by providing them clean water.<br /><br />That is the position he has advocated for others. He did not follow it for himself.<br /><br />Hello, hypocrisy!<br /><br /><i>[erp:] One of Singer's other great thoughts had to do with people killing their newborns (I don't remember up to what age) if they had second thoughts about not aborting them.</i><br /><br />Obviously, since new borns have no awareness of their own lives, or of time. Therefore, since awareness is the defining criterium, newborn humans are no more valuable than kittens, and perhaps less cute.<br /><br />Hey Skipperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10798930502187234974noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-50312710194676263992017-02-06T12:55:43.908-08:002017-02-06T12:55:43.908-08:00Bret, I really tried to read the Altruism link, bu...Bret, I really tried to read the Altruism link, but just couldn't make myself finish it. You are looking for one word, but I have two: Ox & Gored. <br /><br />One of Singer's other great thoughts had to do with people killing their newborns (I don't remember up to what age) if they had second thoughts about not aborting them. The man is certifiable (BTW is that the word you were looking for?).<br /><br />Reminds me a bit of Chomsky's loony ideas -- at least he's only killing language, not fellow humans.<br /><br />I've arranged legally that if my mind goes (remember it's not nice to make snide remarks about the elderly,) my family should have me taken off all meds and life-support. erphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09826044412670324694noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-33675188039774817872017-02-06T10:46:07.201-08:002017-02-06T10:46:07.201-08:00I'm lost.
For a moment, let's take it as ...I'm lost.<br /><br />For a moment, let's take it as a given that a severely mentally impaired human, including Singer's mother, is objectively worth less than a chicken.<br /><br />So it follows that ... um, I dunno, what?<br /><br />People have pet chickens, so he has his pet mother.<br /><br />How is that hypocritical?Brethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15063508651955739056noreply@blogger.com