tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post3052924227010576305..comments2023-10-31T03:18:26.963-07:00Comments on Great Guys Weblog: Creation MythBrethttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15063508651955739056noreply@blogger.comBlogger25125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-14415835018393230612014-05-06T05:12:47.956-07:002014-05-06T05:12:47.956-07:00Skipper,
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I agree. (Although, I thought the th...Skipper,<br /><br />---<br />I agree. (Although, I thought the theory is strong after a fraction of the first second.)<br />---<br />As the exact number is a moving goalpost, I prefer to state 1 second just to make things simple.<br /><br />Our most recent evidence on primordial gravitational waves can be interpreted (although that's model dependent too) as indicating that our Universe was hugely inflated when it was quite younger than 1 second, and that such inflation was triggered at an energy scale near 10^14 GeV.<br /><br />We don't really understand the physics of such energy scale, as we could not yet achieve it under controlled experiments in our particle accelerators. Although the good news is that, previously, we thought the energy scale of inflation was near 10^19 GeV (the famous Planck scale), so in future we may come to understand more about those first microseconds than we expected to be possible.<br />Clovishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08921327103613284595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-28269354417706860622014-05-05T18:18:57.161-07:002014-05-05T18:18:57.161-07:00[Clovis:] We have a very good theory, with outstan...<i>[Clovis:] We have a very good theory, with outstanding experimental validation, that pretty much describes with good confidence the universe behavior up to its first seconds. </i><br /><br />I agree. (Although, I thought the theory is strong after a fraction of the first second.)<br /><br />Any explanation of what went before that is hand waving.Hey Skipperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10798930502187234974noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-1325257251010905402014-05-02T08:36:46.890-07:002014-05-02T08:36:46.890-07:00Clovis wrote: "Let me bring news to you guys:...Clovis wrote: "<i>Let me bring news to you guys: what you are doing is indeed religion. </i>"<br /><br />LOL. First note the post's title is Creation "<i>Myth</i>" so it's obviously not news.<br /><br />A theory that <i>can</i> explain what is observed doesn't necessarily explain what is observed. It takes a leap of faith to link <i>can</i> and <i>does</i> with perfect certainty that there is no other possibility.Brethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15063508651955739056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-38071997804788956332014-05-02T06:35:46.276-07:002014-05-02T06:35:46.276-07:00Bret & Skipper,
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[Bret] Is it? I reject th...Bret & Skipper,<br /><br />---<br />[Bret] Is it? I reject that as well. It looks to me that which we are able to observe* seems to have a finite age<br /><br />[Skipper] That is what I am talking about. Anything beyond that is religion.<br />---<br /><br />Let me bring news to you guys: what you are doing is indeed religion. <br /><br />We have a very good theory, with outstanding experimental validation, that pretty much describes with good confidence the universe behavior up to its first seconds.<br /><br />Now, from a pool of 10^17 seconds, you've chosen to apply your personal belifes to 1 single second. You ought to invoke a 10^-17 precision in your personal preferences over our experimental data.<br /><br />That's not dunnoism. That's just blind faith, of the middle ages sort. Keep with your turtles guys, and take care not to fall down form Earth if you go too far away in the sea.<br />Clovishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08921327103613284595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-65080641670055110792014-05-01T09:23:24.203-07:002014-05-01T09:23:24.203-07:00It looks to me that which we are able to observe* ...<i>It looks to me that which we are able to observe* seems to have a finite age ... </i><br /><br />That is what I am talking about. <br /><br />Anything beyond that is religion.<br />Hey Skipperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10798930502187234974noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-31493294139591846002014-04-30T11:43:46.939-07:002014-04-30T11:43:46.939-07:00Hey Skipper: "...because it begs another turt...Hey Skipper: "<i>...because it begs another turtle.</i>"<br /><br />Ultimately, I'm a dunnoist as well, but I reject out-of-hand any theories or myths that have a beginning (or end). Those beg an infinitely number of turtles. I'd rather the one turtle that supports an infinite universal sort of thingy or thingies.<br /><br />Hey Slipper: "<i>...this universe's material existence — is countable...</i>"<br /><br />Is it? I reject that as well. It looks to me that which we are able to <i>observe*</i> seems to have a finite age, which is different from stating as fact that <i>everything</i> including that which is unobservable has a finite age.<br /><br />*And what we think observe may or may not be accurate.Brethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15063508651955739056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-79365602511570860962014-04-30T10:26:24.094-07:002014-04-30T10:26:24.094-07:00This is why I am a Dunnoist.
Even if your myth is...This is why I am a Dunnoist.<br /><br />Even if your myth is correct, it answers nothing, because it begs another turtle.<br /><br />And, along with Peter, I grabbed for my wallet at the invocation of infinity. It is a concept, not a number, so comparing it with a number, particularly when the subject in question — this universe's material existence — is countable, then infinity doesn't really come into play. (FWIW, I threw around some numbers and came up with 35,515 years to see just one frame from the chocolate factory, and 1.2E18 years to see two, never mind order. That is already meaningless.)Hey Skipperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10798930502187234974noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-63886783259643814062014-04-28T01:46:12.955-07:002014-04-28T01:46:12.955-07:00I can easily imagine that(sea foam resolving itsel...<i>I can easily imagine that(sea foam resolving itself into the Parthenon)</i>.<br /><br />Sure, me too. All the foam needs is enough oomph.Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15836910211382887430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-19330993400135480372014-04-28T00:17:39.667-07:002014-04-28T00:17:39.667-07:00Well, enjoy it (I hope)....
Note, though that one...Well, enjoy it (I hope)....<br /><br />Note, though that one must give it a bit of time and suspend more than a fair amount of disbelief...<br /><br />Did I say it was "humourous"? Actually, it's terrifying...<br /><br />Well, let's say "terrifying and humourous", so to speak.<br /><br />Yes, give it time. It does kind of grows on (in?) you (like gene splices or organ implants).<br /><br />But it's really quite something (once one gets over the queasiness and nausea).... <br /><br />In short, highly recommended....Barry Meislinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04795125774426217113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-27074462790199422642014-04-28T00:11:09.491-07:002014-04-28T00:11:09.491-07:00Can anyone explain to me how stellar, supra-intell...Can anyone explain to me how stellar, supra-intelligent, cortex-ripped reps of the nation of exceptionalism can so easily/eagerly become Buddhist monk wannabees?<br /><br />File under: There are no---thwack!!!---questions.Barry Meislinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04795125774426217113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-52145860093103493812014-04-27T20:50:00.317-07:002014-04-27T20:50:00.317-07:00Clovis wrote: "...they will rob you infinitel...Clovis wrote: "<i>...they will rob you infinitely many times. </i>"<br /><br />LOL!Brethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15063508651955739056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-50160211688269578662014-04-27T19:56:16.133-07:002014-04-27T19:56:16.133-07:00Peter,
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Getting back to Bret's myth, I con...Peter,<br /><br />---<br />Getting back to Bret's myth, I confess I have come to grab my wallet when I come across materialist savants basing their theories of reality on infinity. <br />---<br /><br />You better keep that wallet shut tight, for before you see it they will rob you infinitely many times.<br /><br />Maybe you should invest it in bitcoins, I guess fraudsters and Libertarians won't mess up with their own currency.<br />Clovishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08921327103613284595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-12361987865369870272014-04-27T19:14:34.633-07:002014-04-27T19:14:34.633-07:00AOG,
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Peter, as an example of what I'm pon...AOG,<br /><br />---<br />Peter, as an example of what I'm pondering, consider the Marvel Comics "no-price". Is it a thing? Is it real? Is it a functional delusion?<br />---<br /><br />That and everything else Peter asked was already answered by a greater intellect than us all.<br /><br />And the answer is 42.<br /><br />Clovishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08921327103613284595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-68491680626540764632014-04-27T17:14:23.572-07:002014-04-27T17:14:23.572-07:00"It is like imagining sea foam resolving itse..."<i>It is like imagining sea foam resolving itself into the Parthenon.</i>"<br /><br />I can easily imagine that.Brethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15063508651955739056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-6179673257566344732014-04-27T17:09:58.627-07:002014-04-27T17:09:58.627-07:00Clovis wrote: "...because it is possible to f...Clovis wrote: "<i>...because it is possible to fit the big bang scenario within other scenarios...</i>"<br /><br />Indeed.Brethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15063508651955739056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-63139616395902363792014-04-27T15:35:24.043-07:002014-04-27T15:35:24.043-07:00Barry Meislin wrote: "-I even think there'...Barry Meislin wrote: "<i>-I even think there's some chocolate in it...</i>"<br /><br />Indeed: "...and a chocolate-flavoured energy bar ... limp and sticky inside its foil..."<br /><br />That counts as chocolate to me, so I bought it (kindle edition).Brethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15063508651955739056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-69998458252306407002014-04-27T10:35:43.677-07:002014-04-27T10:35:43.677-07:00No-prize is like many jokes, either one gets it or...No-prize is like many jokes, either one gets it or one doesn't.<br /><br />Is Marvel comics a spin off of the old Captain Marvel comics I read as a kid? We used to wait at the candy store for the trucks to arrive delivering them. What pleasant memories.<br /><br />aog: How do you manage to do all you do?erphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09826044412670324694noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-47319787249525296722014-04-27T10:07:49.171-07:002014-04-27T10:07:49.171-07:00Ah, serendipity, the ability to perceive patters i...Ah, serendipity, the ability to perceive patters in the random chaos of underlying reality.<br /><br />Peter, as an example of what I'm pondering, consider the <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20091022001346/http://geocities.com/mh_prime/8607.html" rel="nofollow">Marvel Comics "no-price"</a>. Is it a thing? Is it real? Is it a functional delusion?Susan's Husbandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02862667802025231163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-14983480245103627892014-04-27T10:03:00.980-07:002014-04-27T10:03:00.980-07:00Peter;
So at least you're getting your money&...Peter;<br /><br />So at least you're getting your money's worth, reading here.<br />Susan's Husbandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02862667802025231163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-69033052234616954842014-04-27T04:56:38.846-07:002014-04-27T04:56:38.846-07:00Um, I think the point is that if a particularly gr...Um, I think the point is that if a particularly great blog falls down in a dark forest with no one around to hear one hand clapping, then may one conclude that the opinions expressed (or not expressed) in/by/via that blog are figments of our collective imagination?<br /><br />Or maybe not.<br /><br />(But if one is looking for some humourous---well it has its moments---recreation mythology---I even think there's some chocolate in it, though it may well be ersatz---I'd recommend Atwood's "Oryx and Crake" trilogy....)Barry Meislinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04795125774426217113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-4316670736134638722014-04-27T02:02:50.734-07:002014-04-27T02:02:50.734-07:00SH:
As the resident liberal arts gadfly here amon...SH:<br /><br />As the resident liberal arts gadfly here among all you brilliant techno-geeks, I try to keep up, with limited success. All I can say in answer to your question is that I am blown away by the suggestion that a remote world of abstract conjecture based largely upon theoretical mathematics is the "real" one and the one we experience daily through our senses is the illusion.<br /><br />Getting back to Bret's myth, I confess I have come to grab my wallet when I come across materialist <i>savants</i> basing their theories of reality on infinity. (<i>And assume they're all infinite in both the plus and minus directions</i>), whether they are talking about infinite time, infinite distance, infinite universes or an infinite number of typing monkeys. Infinity is a merciless taskmaster in logic, but it is also an abstract theoretical concept, no? From a materialist perpsective, isn't there something a little skewed in using it to ground theories of the origins and history of the "real" universe? How would you answer the charge that it is just a Ph.d version of that sweet old lady who said it was turtles all the way down?Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15836910211382887430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-18834259475072098302014-04-26T06:46:29.013-07:002014-04-26T06:46:29.013-07:00Peter;
That's actually a known big issue in m...Peter;<br /><br />That's actually a known big issue in modern physics, except they call it the "collapse of the wave function". I've read entire books on exactly that issue.<br /><br />It's also something I've been thinking about lately. Perhaps what we think is "reality" is just a convenient delusion, a purely cognitive reality imposed on the chaos of the real physical universe. Is sentience simply the ability to create a functional delusion of that nature?Susan's Husbandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02862667802025231163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-72823628885183154142014-04-26T03:01:14.797-07:002014-04-26T03:01:14.797-07:00"We seem to live our lives in perfect indiffe..."We seem to live our lives in perfect indifference to the Standard Model of particle physics, the world we inhabit nor only remote from the world it describes but different in detail, thank God."<br /><br />"Over <i>there</i>, fields are pregnant with latent energy, particles flicker into existence and disappear, things are entangled, and no one can quite tell what is possible and what is actual, what is here and what is there, what is now and what was then. Nothing is stable. Great impassive symmetries are in control, as vacant and unchanging as the eye of Vishnu. Where they come from, no one knows. Time and space contract into some sort of agitated quantum foam. Nothing is continuous. Nothing stays the same for long except the electrons, and they are identical, like porcelain Chinese soldiers. A pointless frenzy prevails throughout."<br /><br />"Over <i>here</i>, space and time are stable and continuous. Matter is what it is and energy does what it does. There are solid and enduring shapes and forms. There are no controlling symmetries. The sun is largely the same sun now that it was four thousand years ago when it baked the Egyptian deserts. Changes appear slowly, but even when rapid, they appear in stable patterns. There is dazzling variety throughout. The great river of time flows forward. We anticipate the future, but we remember the past. We begin knowing we will end."<br /><br />"The God of the Gaps may now be invited to comment--strictly as an outside observor, of course. He is addressing us. And this is what He has to say: 'You have <i>no</i> idea whatsoever how the ordered physical, moral, mental, aesthetic and social world in which you live could ever have arisen from the seething anarchy of the elementary particles.'"<br /><br />" 'It is like imagining sea foam resolving itself into the Parthenon'." <br /><br />---David BerlinskiPeterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15836910211382887430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-73583059377326223322014-04-25T17:06:07.264-07:002014-04-25T17:06:07.264-07:00Nicely skirted and entertaining.Nicely skirted and entertaining.erphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09826044412670324694noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5806884.post-10366197707619374812014-04-25T17:04:25.577-07:002014-04-25T17:04:25.577-07:00Bret,
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"...at some moment all matter in t...Bret,<br /><br />---<br />"...at some moment all matter in the universe was contained in a single point, which is considered the beginning of the universe"<br />---<br /><br />That wikipedia line you quote is doing a disservice to the comprehension of the big bang.<br /><br />It is even more radical than all matter to be concentrated in a single point: it is the beginning of time and space itself to be marked by that point.<br /><br />In other words, the picture of the big bang as a grenade exploding is wrong. When you think of a grenade exploding, you think of it in a definite position and a definite time, at which it explodes. The big bang is not like that, for there is not a stage set where the explosion event happens following a sequence in time. No, it is time and space itself coming to existence.<br /><br />In this sense, Bret, your Myth is almost surely* contradicted by our cosmological theory with the best experimental validation we can have so far - we do not have infinite time to excuse us of any infinitely unlikely possibility. I am sorry.<br /><br /><br />*I say "almost surely" because it is possible to fit the big bang scenario within other scenarios, e.g. as it coming from another "prior" spacetime, among other possibilities, where there would be some other kind of space and time existing before our own coming to existence. So, if you really, really wish, keep going with your Myth, least I am accused of installing a big bang theocracy.<br />Clovishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08921327103613284595noreply@blogger.com