Search This Blog

Wednesday, July 08, 2020

X is Hitler?

In my lifetime, there have been a lot of people compared to Hitler - especially presidents: currently Trump, but before him Obama, and before him Bush (who was often called "bushitler"), and before them many others.

It's so prevalent that Godwin's law was created: "as an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1".

But none of these Hitler comparisons resonate with me. That's because for Hitler, specific attributes, actions and characteristics subjectively stand out to me in sort of a personal Rorschach test where instead of looking at an inkblot I picture or think about Hitler. The very first thing I think of when I think of Hitler is that he put millions of Jews (and others) in concentration camps in terrible conditions then horrifically killed the vast majority of them. Note the past tense of that last statement. It's not that Hitler might or would have done that in the future, but rather he actually did do that. To me, that's the number one unique characteristic of Hitler that pops into my mind when I think about him.

But if I ignore that, my next Rorschach response is that he was a major instigator of the biggest global conflict ever (WWII) that claimed many tens of millions of lives. Again, note the past tense.

If I ignore both the genocide and the world war, then other more trivial things jump out at me; perhaps things that were enablers of some of his terrible actions. For example, I believe that he was fairly intelligent, extremely well read, a persuasive orator, and charismatic. Lastly, during my Hitler Rorschach test, for some reason I generally remember that he was a vegetarian for part of his life.

After that, my Hitler Rorschach test yields very little response. That's not to say that objectively Hitler didn't have many other attributes, actions and characteristics that defined him. I'm just saying that when Hitler pops up in my mind (pretty much universally because someone else brought him up), subjectively, those handful of things are what I think of.

So when I hear "X is Hitler" it just doesn't resonate or convince me because subjectively, to me, if X hasn't actually killed millions in a concentration camp based genocide and started a world war, then X is simply much different than Hitler in my mind.

A variant is "X is as bad as Hitler." For example, "Trump is as bad as Hitler because ICE puts foreign children in cages." This is also subjective, but to me, no U.S. president or politician has come close to being as bad as Hitler. It's bad that foreign children are separated from their parents and detained (put in cages), but there are orders of magnitude fewer children and many orders of magnitude fewer children are killed (and none intentionally) relative to Jewish children in Hitler's Germany. The size of the atrocity makes a difference to me. Sure, one child dying is really bad, but 1,000,000 children dying is a lot worse to me.

As I mentioned above, the tense of the verb matters (subjectively) to me. Thus, "X might/will become as bad as Hitler" just doesn't work for me at least partly because even Hitler wouldn't have become as bad as Hitler except in the very specific set of circumstances that he lived (childhood, WWI, Treaty of Versailles, external influences, economic depression, etc.). A variant of this is "X is on the same path as Hitler." That's more possible but none of our Presidents nor politicians have been on a path anything like Hitler's in my opinion. For example, none of them have written a screed like Mein Kampf which foretold Hitler's ambition and genocidal nature.

I also question to what extent "X is like Hitler" or one of the many variants I listed above more so than "X is like Y" where Y is some other tyrant such as Franco, Stalin, Pinochet, Ivan the Terrible, Alexander the Great, etc. Why is X more like Hitler than any of these others? There are thousands of tyrants to choose from.

I'm always wondering why Hitler?

43 comments:

Clovis said...

Bret,

---
For example, I believe that he was fairly intelligent, extremely well read, a persuasive orator, and charismatic.
---

Save the last two, the other attributes aren't widely associated to him. I would say most biographers would deny he was well read, and a good number would say his IQ was just average.

So why do you think differently?

Hey Skipper said...

I also question to what extent "X is like Hitler" or one of the many variants I listed above more so than "X is like Y" where Y is some other tyrant such as Franco, Stalin, Pinochet, Ivan the Terrible, Alexander the Great, etc. Why is X more like Hitler than any of these others? There are thousands of tyrants to choose from.

Because the goal is to first demonize, then ostracize, without going to the bother of actually constructing a convincing argument.

Bret said...

From wikipedia: "Hitler himself was a voracious reader: he claimed to read at least one book a night, if not more."

Regarding intelligence, note I qualified it with "fairly." I'm not claiming he was a genius, just probably not worse than average (I consider the average person to be "fairly intelligent").

Bret said...

BTW, how are you doing down there in Brazil Clovis?

Clovis said...

Bret,


---
From wikipedia: "Hitler himself was a voracious reader: he claimed to read at least one book a night, if not more."
---

Hehe. And if you believe that, I have here a few wonderful lots selling on a discount in the Moon.

Take notice, even his master piece, Mein Kampf, was not penned by him.


---
BTW, how are you doing down there in Brazil Clovis?
---

Well, I guess I am not allowed to complain. It's been both paradise and hell to be 24h with the kids - they are the best company I could ever have, but it is really hard to keep anything resembling concentration in what refers to work, so there is a background feeling of frustration ever there.

And you Bret, how are you doing?




Bret said...

I'm doing pretty well. I'm sort of a naturally social distancing person and my work (agricultural robotics) is deemed "essential" so the virus has had limited direct effect on me. Well, other than the fact my younger daughter's college closed her dorms so she showed up on my doorstep in March and has been living with me ever since, but that's been really, really nice to not be an empty nester for a while longer.

Hang in there. As long as civilization doesn't collapse, most things will recover moderately quickly I think.

erp said...

Pinochet?

Bret said...

erp, I'm not sure what your question is?

erp said...

The question is why is he on that list.

Bret said...

I was just listing various dictators that came to mind, some worse than others. The point being that there's a lot of dictators politicians such as Trump can be compared to.

erp said...

Oy vey! Orrin must be laughing his head off. We must agree to disagree on this subject..

Glad you're doing okay. Same here.

Clovis said...

Bret,

What your younger one is studying at college these days? I suppose they are giving online classes, right? Have you asked her how is it working?

Bret said...

The younger one is pre-med. She's okay with the online classes generally. While "attending" lectures she hangs out in my apartment overlooking the ocean and goes to the beach with high school friends (with social distancing!!!) for breaks so it's not too bad of a life. :-)

Clovis said...

Bret,

Thanks for taking away any illusions I had about my students taking these online classes seriously...

Bret said...

No! I gave the wrong impression!!!

She's very serious and diligent!

erp said...

Bret, way off topic. A friend is moving to San Marcos and I wondered what you think of the area?

Bret said...

San Marcos is okay. It's reasonably priced but around 10 miles from the coast so not terribly desirable from my point of view. There's more space than closer to the city.

erp said...

They have small kids so are looking for a comfortable middle class place to live with good schools. Thanks, I'll on the info.

PatrickH said...

I spent a while searching for the "Post Judd Alliance" in a nostalgic moment. Just seeing your names makes me wistful. And sad. I was ever a lurker on Orrin's site so I'm not anyone you'd recognize. But I miss what was once the best thing on the internet. Is there anything out there comparable? Orrin's site is a ghost town as I'm sure you've seen. Twitter? I'm disgusted. I guess I just wanted to say hi to some of those that remember. I wish you all the best.

erp said...

PH -- I remember your name as popping up once in while. I miss the old days too. Andrew Sullivan went on the dark side at about the same time as Orrin. He's beginning to see his error and I wonder has anyone checked the old Judd blog to see if there's a light dawning there too.

PatrickH said...

Thanks for the reply erp. I exchange the occasional tweet with Orrin, but his blog is all Never Trump to obsession. Unreadable. But even in the "good old days" the comments really drove the site. I would say my political position is still very much derived from the blog. I discovered it during my conversion from liberal to conservative. Third way neocon I suppose.

erp said...

Thanks for the update. Not at all surprised.

Bret said...

Hi PatrickH,

Good to hear from you.

If you want excellent blogs again, then start posting. I'll give you "keys" to this site if you want to post here.

The main reason I post is to practice writing but the second reason is to start comments and discussion.

So post away and help build up the blogosphere again!

Clovis said...

Patrick,

I am not from the old old days (though I am already old here anyway), but I do read OJ almost every day. I do share his Never Trump streak so I guess I get more fun from it than you.

You probably know other rightwing blogs too (like Instapundit), though the quality of comments there is ever getting lower. The Trump years made them lazy, they can only repeat the tropes back when they were the rebels against Obama.

I do twitter only as an observer, I don't think it makes for a good substitute. And the blogsphere is dying away with no turning back. And I do mean dying away: Part of the people of the begin of the 2000s is gone for good.

BTW, I am worried about Harry (of restating the obvious), he gives no signs of life anymore, have you guys heard from him lately?

erp said...

Clovis, have you checked obits for Harry? I can't remember his last name, but I believe he worked for a newspaper in Hawaii.

erp said...

... have no idea why my picture changed?????

erp said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Clovis said...

Erp,

It is Harry Eagar.

His last post, in the comments, he pointed out he was going for other domain, I guess he gave up on the old one but did not set up the new one.

He was also tired from arguing with Skipper (it happens to all of us sometimes), so maybe he is just taking his time too.

erp said...

No obit, but he's on Facebook. Age given is 73, so he's a youngster yet. :-)

Clovis said...

I don't use facebook, but give him a hello for me if you get in touch.

erp said...

I don't do any social media, but he may check out his old friends now and then and pop in here.

Clovis said...

I don't think he will come here anymore, he believes you guys are too racist.

Though I guess he will come in after (and if) Biden wins, in order to see you guys coming back to life to complain all over again. Trump made this blog lazy too.

PatrickH said...

Bret, I don't have the time or talent to take over a blog. I appreciate the work that goes in to doing it right.

Erp, I found OJ through Instapundit way back when he actually linked some of OJ's posts. One by one most of the great blogs have gone away. Though I will recommend "Cop in the Hood" and "Coyote Blog". Peter Moskos of "Cop in the Hood" gives great insight into policing and crime. The book of the same name is very good. Also "The Glenn Show" at Blogging Heads. As for Never Trump, I was in that camp before 2016. But there's no way I can consider voting D in this election. Living in Seattle and watching what's happening both here and in Portland is more than I can take.

erp said...

Don’t remember clearly, but I found the blog after I had some contact with Judd on a personal non-political matter. We lived in Vermont at then time, It was fun.

One of my granddaughters is starting college in Seattle and I worry about her. She’s one of triplets and her sister is starting college in Portland. 😱. They live in Piedmont CA, a hot bed of those who got us into this mess.

Those days are ancient history to that generation. My six year old granddaughter took me on a Facetime tour of their new house. It’s absolutely precious. She could have her own TV show right now.

I am not at all religious, but I believe Trump was heaven sent in the model of olden days heroes who slayed (slew?) the dragon.

If not, we’re all toast.

Clovis said...

Patrick, the BLM protests are happening under Trump (and a few happened under Obama too). What makes you think the presidential election will change any of that?

Erp, I can bet you were predicting doom to the world in your last 15 incarnations.

Bret said...

PatrickH wrote: "As for Never Trump, I was in that camp before 2016. But there's no way I can consider voting D in this election."

Hmmmm. Never Trump but won't vote D. How does that work? If you're truly NEVER Trump then don't you have to vote D? Or are you just not gonna vote? Or vote other party?

BTW, I wasn't suggesting you take over the blog. Only that you participate.

erp said...

Clovis, I've only predicted disaster since Wilson and the BLM disgrace is just another of the left's ploys to get rid of Trump. Blacks are not part of it. The rioters are paid players. Look at the long shots and all the players in the riots are fat and white - there are only a few blacks at the core for the video cameras.

Even though I'm racist in your eyes, I have friends of various hues and eye shapes and I can tell you, none of them support the upheaval with the bogus flu and riots as do very few of my pale face friends.

The gimme-free-stuff culture has passed its sell-by date.

With Venezuela such a close neighbor as a example, I'm surprised you haven't moved more to the right or at least the center.

Clovis said...

Erp,

I know you named my name in your missive, but I guess you are speaking to someone else in your mind.

erp said...

Clovis said...

"Erp, I can bet you were predicting doom to the world in your last 15 incarnations."

Clovis said...

Erp,

Are you voting for Trump this time around too? I mean, you'll give yourself the trouble to go out there and vote? Or is it going to be by mail in your area too?

erp said...

Clovis, why do you think I'll give myself trouble to go out there? I have no trouble getting around, so I'll vote the regular way at the polls.

PatrickH said...

Bret, It was easy to be Never Trump in 2016. I've always disliked and distrusted him, the left hadn't taken a hard left into the ideological dumpster, and I live in a state where my vote doesn't matter. But after several years of watching governors, mayors and even fed legislators sink to becoming fellow travelers for violent leftists I've adjusted my position. Even the party leaders have, until the last few days, given these groups a wink and a nod. And I will not be blackmailed with threats of increased violence into voting for Biden. Hatred of and opposition to all things Trump is causing greater problems than the actual policies and performance of the Republicans during the last 4 years. Though I still loathe the guy.

Bret said...

PatrickH,

I guess you use a different definition of "never" than I do. :-) I was under the impression "never" meant longer than a few years.

You wrote: "Hatred of and opposition to all things Trump is causing greater problems than the actual policies and performance of the Republicans during the last 4 years."

That seems like a good reason to vote for Biden to me because the hatred of and opposition to Trump, almost certainly amplified, will certainly continue the next 4 years if Trump remains president.

I sorta get the "blackmail" argument, but only if you can make a convincing argument that I (and by "I" I mean my family and those I care about), will be better off by re-electing Trump and given the anguish and stress they feel simply because he happens to be President, I'm not sure there is a convincing argument.