Caracas, Venezuela — The decision on Thursday by several Venezuelan courts to annul the signatures gathered to activate a recall referendum casts into limbo the possibility of removing President Nicolás Maduro from office by constitutional, peaceful and electoral means. Unsurprisingly, the National Electoral Council used the decision to announce a few hours later that this week’s signature collection had been suspended, thus preventing the referendum from being carried out.
This judicial stratagem exudes an aura of illegality and cannot be explained without taking into account the ironclad concentration of powers wielded by the Chavista government in Venezuela since 2005.
Is there an example anywhere, anytime of a socialist country that didn't end up on those rocks?
15 comments:
There may be a level of "socialism" from which there is no return. But China, India, Sweden (if you consider them socialist), other Scandinavian countries (if you consider them socialist), etc. are potential counterexamples, depending on how exactly one defines socialism.
There also may be a level of corruption from which there is no return. Venezuela certainly had some of that too.
Bret, China and India did qualify as socialist, and they both ended up on those rocks: extensive grinding poverty, and tyrannical government (somewhat less so in India's case). China's government is still tyrannical, and India's bureaucracy is nearly as bad.
Sweden doesn't qualify, although England nearly did. And it was well and truly headed in that direction until Thatcher became PM.
Was there ever a successful socialist country that was not destroyed by fascist military action?
Harry, obviously no because there never was a successful socialist country unless you mean successful in making their leaders filthy rich. They all self-destructed and we're still waiting to learn what a fascist is, never mind a fascist country. Never too old learn. Let's hear it.
Bret, my neighbor, a self-employed tech consultant in her late 50's was born in India and brought here as a toddler. She has ties there, lived and went to school there for some years as a teenager and has been back frequently. I asked her if she considered India a socialist country. She was surprised at the question and said absolutely no.
Also, do you consider the horrors of Maoism a success story?
erp asks: "...do you consider the horrors of Maoism a success story?"
No. But "not a success story" is different from "ending up on the rocks."
Bret, it ended up on the rocks for the tens of millions Mao killed and what do we really know about China other than the billionaire entrepreneurs buying up everything here and that the air in Beijing in unbreathable and other cities too no doubt.
Travelers to China don't have access to areas not on the tourist map.
I read a remark by a young Chinese woman who said that the first time she saw a blue sky was when she got off the plane in the U.S.
IMO, definitely not a success story for most and possibly not on the rocks for the elites.
[Harry:] Was there ever a successful socialist country that was not destroyed by fascist military action?
(echoing erp) Harry, first you have to find us a successful socialist country.
... and define fascist.
Erp,
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I read a remark by a young Chinese woman who said that the first time she saw a blue sky was when she got off the plane in the U.S.
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Looks blue enough to me.
In this day and age, Erp, you sure can do a lot better than buying this kind of non sense.
Sorry, I wasn't clear. She was talking about Beijing, which she hadn't ever left before, so she didn't know how blue the sky was in the rest of China.
Having been to Beijing, Shanghai and Guangzhou often enough, I can attest that the air in the cities is crap -- Los Angeles circa 1963, but worse. I flew into Beijing exactly once over 8 years when it was like the pictures in Clovis' link.
Same happened when we drove into Mexico 35 years ago. We went in at Nuevo Laredo and when we got to Monterrey, we actually couldn't see much past the side of the rode. When we stopped to eat, there were brochures of the mountains we had just passed which were totally obliterated by black smog.
The same summer we also drove through Canada where
at the border there were big signs about U.S. pollution while Canadian electric plants were belching black smoke.
I was thinking particularly of Vienna in 1934 and the clerical-fascists. You know, the ones bombarding the workers' apartments.
It's in the history books, erp
... Harry it's no surprise that you would be thinking of "Vienna in 1934 and the clerical-fascists" -- good times, good times, but you needn't be nostalgic for them because in a couple of days, there'll be another round of them. ;-]
Harry, have you found us a successful socialist country yet?
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