Imagine if being shortsighted, a bit shy and socially awkward, not much handsome or strong, would still end up being a great boost to your chances of making babies and passing on your genes?
That’s what arguing for a genetic ability for ‘mathiness’ may entail, as the qualities above are pretty common among ‘mathy’ people (I know, I live among them). I can get why at least ‘mathy’ people would very much like to believe that :-)
As I see it, if anything, genes for “mathiness” would be more of an evolutionary burden than a gift. At least up to the last three decades, when being a ‘nerd’ shifted to being acceptable or even a positive trait – though in social circles where they also have lower than replacement reproductive rates, not helping much with the evolutionary part.
Yet, as Bret may be arguing, it is undeniable the influence of Jewish heritage, particularly of the Ashkenazi sort, in the mathematical sciences of the last 2 centuries. The disproportinate presence of Jews in modern Academia has been a source of envy with fateful consequences, such as Nazi Germany banning a sizable part of their own academic elite - handing their enemies a most valuable resource, as those same minds led America to the ultimate weapon (and the best proof that “karma is a b****” you may ever find).
Is it possible that Ashkenazi “mathiness” is a genetic trait, as Bret poses? We know intelligence is heritable, and there is even a (reasonable?) case on Ashkenazi IQ being above average. Yet geneticists have been looking – very unsuccesfully – for “gay genes” for half a century now. I wonder, if a nearly primal thing as love for humans can’t easily be represented by a set of genes, what to say about love for numbers?
But if we are to invoke history, we must go all the way through. After all, notwithstanding the cultural hallmarks of Israel, it is not there that you’ll find the great pyramids, Giza (c. 2500 BC) being built way before Abraham or the Kingdom of Judah (c. 900 BC) were around.
The mathematical acumen of the Egyptians was probably acquired by the Babylonians before 1600 BC. Though also a semitic people, they enslaved their Hebrew cousins a thousand years later, and we can conjecture the captives must have learned some math too – the Torah/Old Testament does present the number ‘pi’ as 3 (though Babylonians knew it with a few more decimal places). By the time Judeans were getting back their land (c. 540 BC), the torch of ancient Math was being passed on to another people of no semitic kinship: the Greek.
By then Thales of Miletus had already invented the fundamental stone of proper Mathematics, the Axiomatic method. He used it to prove the first theorems in geometry we know of – though he probably got them from the Egyptians who ‘knew’ it without formal proof. A generation later Pythagoras (or whatever group of people under that name) would initiate that famed school of thought, after traveling around Egypt and Persia, drinking from those mathematical sources too.
In the next 300 years the Greek would advance Math beyond anything seen previously, reaching their highest point with Euclid’s Elements (in Alexandria) and, a generation later, the greatest mathematician of the ancient world: Archimedes (288-212 BC) of Syracuse, though he did study in Alexandria too. This man will be responsible, nearly 17 centuries later, for the resurrection of the Heliocentric system (Copernicus got the idea from an Archimedes’ book, though Archimedes himself built on another Greek, Aristharcus of Samos); and the birth of integro-differential calculus by Fermat-Newton-Leibniz, both hallmarks of the modern scientific revolution.
At this point, maybe a keen observer back then would be justified at wondering about a Hellenistic gene for mathematics, except they had no idea about genes and so far Egyptians, Babylonians, Persians and Greek had not too many genetic connections. They did have cultural bridges built along history though. ‘Nature 0’ X ‘Nurture 1’ so far.
Archimedes will die by the hands of the new up and coming Empire - the Romans - in the second punic war, because his king (and cousin) made the mistake to betray the Romans for Carthago, a city of Phoenician background (so another cousin of the Judeans) trying their hand in the great geopolitical game. The relevant mathematicians of the next few centuries will mostly be around the Library of Alexandria (in Egypt, at some point Roman possession too). For all their mastering of engineering techniques, the Romans themselves won’t contribute much else to fundamental mathematics. We also know that Hellenistic cities of this ancient period had more literacy rates than Israeli ones, for example. So apparently, having a good Library was of much greater value than any genetic consideration back then. ‘Nature 0’ X ‘Nurture 2’.
A bit over 600 years later, the (western) Romans will fall to “barbarians” with no mathematical knowledge whatsoever, taking down also anything resembling an “education system”, with libraries (and whole cities) burnt, no more tutoring paths to Roman citizens, no more engineering corps and orderly societies under Roman pax and law. Western Europe will forget most of the Greek-Roman former ‘high culture’, Greek mathematics very much included. They will take more than 700 years to rediscover it, by translating it from Arab back to Latin after expelling the Muslims from Toledo (Spain) and taking the great Library the Arabs built therein – igniting a process that will lead to the European Renascence a couple of centuries later. There again, ‘Nature 0’ X ‘Nurture 3’.
By the time the Romans fell, they had expelled the Jews out of Judea for nearly 400 years. Though literacy rate of Jews before diaspora was probably below 3%, post-diaspora Jews were mainly influenced by their more nerdy faction, the Pharisees, who placed great emphasis on teaching male Jews from a young age to read their sacred texts. Yet, after six hundred years of diaspora the worldwide Jew population fell from 5 to merely 1 million, if much. A good deal of those lost Jews were not dead, but probably gave up on being Jews, for it was too taxing to keep the strict Pharisaic laws.
It is possible that this ‘selective pressure’ among Jews themselves drove the “strongest/smartest” to stay? Is it possible that continued formal education throughout centuries of father-to-son (or Rabbi-to-students) led to (be it ‘evolutive’ and/or ‘Lamarck-like’ – mind you, epigenetics is in fashion again) a sort of smarter people?
I don’t know, but in what refers strictly to Mathematics that was hardly the case: the new hot point was the Arab world, who greatly developed our computational capability by the introduction of a more intelligent notation (algarisms) and upon incorporating a grossly underestimated invention from the Indians: the zero. They also had libraries full of that old Greek wonderful math.
You will first hear of Jewish mathematicians along history in Spain circa 1100, back in the intersection among Muslims, Jews and Christians, where the last two are trying to cacht up with the first one.
Even allowing that capacity for language may lead to mathematical skills (since math is a kind of language too), there is still the point that literacy here isn’t a very well defined concept. A sizable proportion of male Jews were exposed to reading from an early age, but how efficient was that? Up to the 1600s (previous to Gutemberg), the best case scenarios would be the most devot (or connected to Rabbinic service) would read much of a very limited literature (few books around); the most common scenario is the one of a majority that would scarcely read any literature in their everyday life. Many probably even forgot what they’ve learned when kids. To drive home this point, even in relatively modern Tsarist empire of 1897, one third of Jewish male population was illiterate. I doubt pre-1600s was even half as good as that.
But let us suppose that a good number (say, at least 50% of males) of Ashkenazi in post-1600 Europe were not only literate, but actually used letters in their everyday life in meaningful ways. They certainly had a head start compared to the rest of the European population. Let us also say that at least 20% of these (hence 10% of total male population) used mathematics – four operations basic stuff at least– in their everyday life in meaningful ways. It remains the question: would 2 or 3 hundred years (give or take a few more if you wish) be enough for selection pressure to act on this group?
Just for comparison, lactose tolerance was developed among European populations in a timeframe considered real quick: a few (3 to 5, give or take) thousand years. And that’s for a genetic variation that depends on far, far less genes than a trait like ‘intelligence’.
I don’t know about you, but I am willing to bet that whatever points “nature” scores on this matter, “nurture” will be far off in the scoreboard.
4 comments:
Clovis wrote: "‘Nature 0’ X ‘Nurture [...]’"
Interesting assertion, but you haven't made much of a case for it. To even begin making the case, you'd have to show the individuals who developed the math you refer to had no genetic advantage whatsoever. I mean, perhaps Archimedes was just some fool who liked going around naked shouting "eureka" or perhaps he had more mathiness in his genes than average; perhaps Pythagoras was just a village idiot (savant) who happened to blurt out a*a + b*b = c*c and other geometric insights or perhaps he was a smart dude with some help from his genes. Can you show that psychometric data from the era proves some very narrow variance in math ability and couple it with genetic information from the age and show that the known genes for intelligence are pretty much uniform in that population? If not, saying 'Nature 0' makes no sense to me.
You say that the various groups you mentioned "had not too many genetic connections." Are you sure? Was there no intermarriage among rulers, nobility, merchants, etc. for alliances and other purposes? I mean there's that story about the Roman Antony and that Greek lady Cleopatra - seems like genes did get mixed that way. You point out wars - was there no raping by the winners (for example, Genghis Kahn is allegedly a direct ancestor of 0.5% of the modern population)?
Even if these various groups were isolated per your claim, were these mathematicians distributed throughout the population or were they completely or for the most part members of the elite or ruling classes? Could the pressures to get to and sustain themselves and their families as part of the elite put pressure on their genetic composition such that they were genetically conditioned to be better at math than average? After all, it does take some math skills to run a kingdom or fiefdom. Could war have furthered this pressure? For example, the winners may well have had better logistics skills, again something that requires arithmetic, if not math. So it could be that groups, even if they weren't related, had some members of their elite concentrate at least some of the tens of thousand of genes related to intelligence, right? Maybe not, but you'd need to prove that before the claim 'Nature 0' is very compelling.
Clovis wrote: "I don’t know about you, but I am willing to bet that whatever points “nature” scores on this matter, “nurture” will be far off in the scoreboard."
That rather depends on what you mean by that. If you mean that even the smartest and most innovative of us (however those folks came to be smart and innovative) will only add incrementally to the enormous body of knowledge that our ancestors and contemporaries have created up through the present moment, and if you consider that body of knowledge and access to it "nurture," then sure, I agree, though I think it a completely useless interpretation.
If, on the other hand, you mean that those who make the majority of breakthroughs and innovations in STEM going forward will have nearly identical average polygenic scores for intelligence as the general population, then I'd bet heavily against you if there was a way to objectively prove the outcome one way or the other in any reasonable timeframe (a timeframe where I'm still alive, for example). Furthermore, I'd bet heavily that the scientific giants of the past would also, on average, have higher than average polygenic scores for intelligence, again if it were provable one way or the other.
A friend of mine from college has been sending me papers on genetics (several dozen at this point) and it looks to me like time is on my side for this particular argument, but we'll see in ten or twenty years, maybe more.
Bret,
There is, by your part, a misinterpretation of my argument I should have pointed out before.
At no point I argued that everyone is identical and equally capable at every task by their genetic endowments. I can easily accept that people are born with different potentials due to their particular combination of genes - though if those potentials will materialize still depends far more on nurture than nature.
What I don't buy is that somewhat open/wide tasks, such as building robots, or even mathematics, will be traceable to heritable genetics. 'Intelligence' looks to be heritable (at a level between 50% to 80%, if you believe the papers on the subject), but intelligence of the general non-specialized kind.
Given I can't provide psychometric data on every dead mathematician of past, I was hoping to take on the subject from another angle: if we have genes for math, they hardly look to be manifest in math history. You see (i) great advancementsm by mostly unrelated individuals within a population, and (ii) by unrelated populations at large.
So let me try a much shorter version for this post: if Jews have a particular gene for math, it sure didn't show up throughout history. And when it does show up more recently, it is in a timeframe where it is highly unlikely genetics could be playing the major role.
Clovis wrote: " I can easily accept that people are born with different potentials due to their particular combination of genes ... it is highly unlikely genetics could be playing the major role. "
The first and last parts of your comment seem contradictory to me. So either I don't understand what you're saying (bad genes on my part I guess :-), you're comparing apples to oranges, you're making a trivial and meaningless statement, and/or I completely, strongly and overwhelmingly disagree.
The apples and oranges interpretation is that when you wrote "highly unlikely genetics" you mean that it's highly unlikely that evolutionary pressures would drive intelligence in those timeframes as opposed to the genes of an individual who makes an important STEM discovery or innovation having essentially no role.
But there's a fundamental problem with even that interpretation. ALL of evolution is not only highly unlikely but EXTREMELY unlikely. Until it happens. Then it becomes certain. The probability looking forward from where there was no life but some primordial goop that evolutionary processes would eventually cause the existence of that fellow Einstein noticing that e=mc^2 was (essentially) zero. Until it happened. Then the probability was 1.
Now, was Einstein merely a completely random occurrence within the human population or was his likelihood somewhat increased because he was a part of a nerdy group that highly incentivized or even forced their non nerdy members to leave for a couple of millennia? I don't know, but I don't find the "highly unlikely" argument has a lot of meaning.
The thing is, no evolution is required. I'm pretty sure that if you took any random group of 10 million, had them reproduce randomly EXCEPT that anyone who tested with IQ < 100 got tossed each generation, that after a hundred generations you'd have far fewer people BUT their average IQ would be greater than 100. And I'd bet their mathiness would also be higher than average and they'd have more Einstein level intellects per capita than average.
So now onto the trivial. Had Einstein been born (with his genetic predisposition to being decent at math and science), but then not fed and died, he wouldn't've ever noticed e=mc^2. So in cases like these nurture certainly trumps nature. There is definitely a minimum level of nurture required for all mammals to survive and without survival any other traits don't matter. So when you say that everything depends "far more on nurture than nature," sure, it's trivially true. The intelligence, mathiness, etc., of dead people is nil.
The reason I would say that genetic predisposition is the major factor is that if you take someone with sufficient genetic predisposition to be good at math, all the nurturing in the world will never bring them to the level of Einstein. For example, I could've had the best parents and the best upbringing and the best schooling and the best books and the best everything, but I still would not have been capable of coming up with special and general relativity. Heck, I barely understand them now after having others teach it to me.
In other words, with insufficient nurturing you could ensure Einstein never became Einstein, but even with all of the nurturing in the world, I would never be Einstein either.
And that brings me to why we disagree. It would've been fun to be Einstein but the limitations of my genes are what kept me from it - that's what played the major role. Instead I'm a lowly roboticist.
Bret,
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The first and last parts of your comment seem contradictory to me.
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Only if you associate genetics to hereditability in one-to-one fashion, which is false.
You can be born with a particular combination of genes (intrinsic to the DNA) and their manifestation, i.e. epigenetics (relating to many things that will happen in the uterus while a fetus, and later on when growing up) that gives you a head start to cognitive tasks related to math. There is absolutely zero evidence that your children will inherit that particular trait for math, even though there is evidence they may inherit more general cognitive capacity that correlates with higher scores at general IQ tests.
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The apples and oranges interpretation is that when you wrote "highly unlikely genetics" you mean that it's highly unlikely that evolutionary pressures would drive intelligence in those timeframes as opposed to the genes of an individual who makes an important STEM discovery or innovation having essentially no role.
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Not general intelligence, but explicitly mathematical prowess - hey, you are the one posing people may be better roboticists for their genes right? You don't see many relevant contributions of that particular group to mathematics before the 1800s, but suddenly upon its success in the following period you run for genetics as an explanation? Genes don't look to act so fast in most other cases we know of.
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The reason I would say that genetic predisposition is the major factor is that if you take someone with sufficient genetic predisposition to be good at math, all the nurturing in the world will never bring them to the level of Einstein.
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You are very near an insight right there.
Einstein wasn't seen as any particular genius by his peers until he was nearly 30 years old. Heck, he couldn't land anything resembling an academic job in Physics after his PhD and needed to settle as a patent office clerk for years. None of his professors at ETH took great notice of him throughout his whole undergrad and grad studies.
I am willing to bet Einstein had a pretty high IQ value if he had done such a test (he never did), but very probably you would find a number of fellow physicists scoring higher than him at that same test. When Paul Dirac wrote the paper on his fundamental equation (Dirac's Equation), Einstein couldn't understand a word - he first deemed Dirac a lunatic, because actually Dirac was probably smarter than Einstein in the usual term "smart" takes. And the inventor of General Relativity couldn't find any of the important solutions to his own equations - they were found by peers in the next few years (and decades).
Yet Einstein is widely and justly regarded as the most sucessful physicist of XX century.
So it is not the case that "all the nurturing in the world will never bring them to the level of Einstein" - actually, some people could well be *above* the level of Einstein and still not be an Einstein! And I don't even need to talk about genes to conclude so. But if genes are to be mentioned, the family tree of Einstein is well documented up to the 1700s. You won't find any relevant trace of mathematical genius throughout it.
All of that invariably takes us to nurture - where "nurture" is not only about feeding babies, but every external input the genes box (a.k.a. body) receives. Among the great mathematical minds around the time of Einstein, what made this particular fellow achieve what he did? No doubt very many things, but I bet genes isn't the main one, not even among the 3 (or 5?) main ones.
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And that brings me to why we disagree. It would've been fun to be Einstein but the limitations of my genes are what kept me from it - that's what played the major role. Instead I'm a lowly roboticist.
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You are not famous for writing nonsense, Bret, so I guess we can pardon you for this one.
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